ARCHIVED: Discussion Topic - Civilizations of the World

[Blue Monkey]

Couldn't it be the "O'Rovers" vs. the Saxon-sounding "Tharks"?

 

[Balthasar]

Couldn't it be the "O'Rovers" vs. the Saxon-sounding "Tharks"?

That would be my preference, since I'm mostly Irish, myself. That having been said:

Civilopedia Civilizations part III: The Moon races


[Note to group: for the sake of balance, as well as getting Verne's Selenites into the game, I have taken some liberties with the description of these races]

The U'ga: In the perpetual twilight of the Moon's meridian - the thin strip of rock where the dark and light sides of the moon meet, and it is neither dark and freezing nor blinding and unbearable - the U'gas and the Selenites have found two different ways to thrive and grow in an environment that most other races wouldn't survive at all.

The U'gas call their lunar world Va'nah. They are humanoid, and were originally part of an ancient race from a distant galaxy, the Vril-ya, who were stranded on the moon's surface and learned to adapt inside the moon's deep craters, where water and even atmosphere exist. The city of Laythe is the U'gas' capitol city, from which they are ruled by their Jemadar, Sagroth.

All gentlemen of this race carry, as their custom, a short lance or javelin, a dagger, and a sword. They keep these weapons with them at all times because the Selenites are extremely unpredictable and can attack without warning. Many U'ga hunters carry a coil of rope around their bodies underneath their clothing. The rope is used for emergencies such as to gain entrance to tunnels below the crater’s edge. That the U'gas would remain at such a high state of vigilance might seem strange to some, in fact they are as used to it as we are used to wearing shoes.


The U'gas have learned that they can occasionally capture a Selenite and domesticate it to work, and in fact they are considered to be extremely competent workers, as once set to a task, a Selenite will keep doing that task until it is completed. It is not unusual for a Selenite worker, given a task which is beyond its abilities, to literally work itself to death.

The Selenites - Because of their exoskeletons, most humans would say that the Selenites look like insects, only much, much larger. They share the moon with the U'gas, an advanced civilization. Most Selenites have low intelligence, but all Selenites share one spectacular talent: they are perfect mimics, and can duplicate any structure or technology, down to the source minerals. They are also social mimics, can pick up a new languages instantly, and will adopt the body language and attitude of whatever being it comes upon (so if you are surprised by a Selenite, it is wise to be friendly; of course, if a Selenite is hungry, it will find a way to eat you anyway). As a result of this mimicry, the cities of the Selenites are as big and beautiful as those of the U'gas themselves. Some say that the cities are a variation on a Venus flytrap; that somewhere in the past the Selenites' ancestors developed this technique to lure unwary travelers into their lairs to be eaten. Actually, the Selenites devote most of their attention to the care of their Queen, upon whose milk the Selenites depend for life. The Selenite entrusted with the care of the Queen has the title GrandLunar, and acts as the Selenites' leader.

 

[Quinzy]

Such a pity that the dregs of our country ruined such a noble people... Granted, they moved out of necessity, and were coarse through abuse of heritage, but the west of america was raped by colonists- Irish and others alike. Ah well, it's the way the world works isn't it?

And boy, Balthasar, those pedia entries are astounding! Top marks!

 

[Balthasar]

Such a pity that the dregs of our country ruined such a noble people...

They didn't. That was done by the Spanish, British, Portugese, Dutch, French, and even Russian settlers who preceded them.

And now for something completely different. . . .

Civilopedia Civilizations, part IV: Undersea, Underground

[Note to the group: for the sake of clarity, the Vril race will be spelled with one "L" while the resource will be spelled with two.]

Atlantis:

The clues we had kept mentioning 'Atland' and the North Sea, but Ahab insisted that there was no such place, not even an island, that fit the description. "Fools!" said Nemo, "They are describing Atlantis! It is not on the North Sea it is under it!" This declaration was met all around with skepticism, as it was generally agreed that Plato's description of Atlantis had been of a place near the Straits of Gibraltar, or in the Americas. "You shall see!" cried Nemo, and left, returning a short while later with a manuscript, which he described as an ancient document recently discovered in Fresia, called 'The Oera Linda Book' . Fogg, who had knowledge of obscure languages, examined the book and after a while declared that it did indeed describe the location as being under the North Sea. Nemo only glared at the rest of us, and finally said, "I shall prepare," and then stormed out. Later, Holmes took me aside and intimated that he had examined the document, and decided that it was a fake. "But," he said, "we could never convince Nemo of it." Then he added, "I'm sure the captain will provide us with an interesting voyage nonetheless."

When Atlantis sank beneath the sea, the only thing that saved its occupants from watery death was a network of tunnels beneath the city, provided from below with breathable atmosphere . These tunnels apparently existed before the city sank; one theory is that the mountain upon which Plato says Atlantis was built was actually a hollowed-out volcano, dead from ancient times. The Atlantans adapted in time to their new environment; they tamed the creatures of the sea around them, most notoriously training Giant Squid to defend the sea that lies above them. However enlightened the Atlantans may have been before their country sank (and they have wonderful ancient archives), twenty-five centuries of isolation have left them extremely xenophobic and aggressive. They are unusually healthy and very long lived, having access to a form of concentrated, nutrient-rich water resource called Vrill that is collected in the underground tunnels. Some centuries ago, the Atlantans that lived underground and collected the Vrill fell into civil war with those who lived on the seabed above, and the two factions split into separate nations, neither of whom have anything resembling an agreeable nature.

The Vril: The Vril are a disagreeable people who live in the tunnels and caves that riddle the earth beneath Atlantis. When the great general of the Vril, Magrot, led his people in revolt against the Atlantans, his motto was, translated: "Because We Deserve It". Little more needs to be said about the Vril, who are possibly the most self-satisfied, self-congratulatory, self-centered race that ever lived. To that end, they have amassed a great library of self-complimentary histories, all culminating with them saving mankind (of whom they know nothing). That they never come out of their tunnels is not mentioned. They have access, however, to Vrill, the valuable substance after which they are named. Vrill, a form of concentrated, mineral-rich water, can quicken healing, and lengthen life. Also available in the tunnels of the Vril is oil, which collects in pools and ruins whole caves with its stench, and a wide variety of minerals, so they would be valuable trading partners, if you could stand them. Be careful though, as they are likely to attempt to trade their history as a valuable resource, when in fact it has no value at all!

 

[Balthasar]

And now the final installment:

Civilopedia Civilizations, part V: Pellucidar

The Amoz: The Amoz are a primitive people who live in the lost world of Pellucidar, deep beneath the earth's crust. Nobody knows how they got there (they do not look like the Atlantans) or how long they've been there. Despite their being a primitive race, they have a very complex society. They are a strikingly attractive race, and also a friendly people, quick to call you Padang (friend) and to offer you a cup of Tumal (a native brew). Their life, however, is harsh, as they are caught in a life-and-death struggle with the Mahar, a confederation of ancient deadly creatures that occupy nearly half their world. The Amoz are aware of the Vril, but call them "The Buried Ones" and believe them to be cannibals. The Amoz also control the world's only source of Cavorite, a mineral essential to the development of space flight! They are familiar with agriculture, tending to large farms despite the Mahars' threat, but have not yet mastered mining. They have been able to domesticate a few of the Mahar beasts by a method we'd call lobotomy, and use them as we would use horses or oxen. Dogs are apparently immune to the mechanism that controls the other beasts (retaining their reputation for loyalty to mankind), and the Amoz use them for early warning, tracking, and protection. The Sagoths are ruled by Diane the Beautiful, Daughter of Kandar, King of Amoz; Princess of Amoz, Empress of Pellucidar.

The Mahar: To call the Mahar a civilization is actually a misnomer; in fact all of the prehistoric beasts of Pellucidar are under the control (possibly telepathic) of the Kong, a race of giant intelligent Great Apes that have a deep hatred for humans. The greater question is where these beasts came from, as most of them disappeared from the earth millions of years before mankind even appeared. There are also beasts in Pellucidar that were familiar to early man, such as the Sabertooth Tiger and the Mammoth; one can find modern creatures such as wolves and jungle cats among the Mahar as well, and even some that weren't believed to exist, like sea dragons! Regardless of the type of beast, it is wiser to avoid a Mahar than to confront it, but if you must, it is even wiser to kill it before it kills you.

 

[jlvfr]

The more I read these entries the more I drool waiting fro the mod...

 

[KingArthur]

Now that we have civs worked out I propose we start thinking about units we would like to see. Feel free to make suggestions in the unit lines discussion thread. It might be hard getting some units made as I've mentioned before so try to identify some existing units that will fit in. Thanks

 

[Blue Monkey]

I almost posted these in the Units thread because of the cool war machine, but decided they belong here as illustrations of otherworldy civs.

 

[Blue Monkey]

"Other Worlds" Map Civs:

I thought of posting this in the maps thread, but it more properly belongs here. I don’t think the different versions of the mod should become too distinct yet. There may be some elements that will spark ideas for the Lost Worlds & Counterfactual Terra versions. I’m certainly open to being influenced to draw my list more closely to the others as well.

Here’s a tentative list of civs (28 so far) I’m considering for the mod-version temporarily called Sceptre & Orbs - "A Clash of Empires Across the Depths of the Aether". They are divided into 5 vaguely defined culture groups. The parenthetical notes give a bit of back story as to the character of each civ.


Euro-Ams

In the Old World

• Anglian Empire (AH version of the British Empire with a stronger Saxon influence; Harold beat William the C.)

Various historic forces lead to the advent of multiple states, where in our world stood the French Empire and a united Germany:

• Occitania (the Oc speaking cultures came out on top in the Albigensian Crusades)
• The Dogal States (Venice eclipsed Rome in the Renaissance; includes most of Italy & the Adriatic states, and many overseas colonies under the sway of the Jesuits)
• Hanseatic League (a mercantile oligarchy centered around the North & Baltic Seas)
• Compact of Free Bohemia (inspired by Mozart & the other freethinkers of the 18th c., Anarcho-Syndicalists throw off the oppressors & a new Renaissance flowers in central Europe)

In the New World

• Empire of Brasyl (former French royalty, squeezed between the strong cultural hegemony of Occitania & the burgeoning economic power of the Hanseatic League, sought refuge by slashing and burning a new kingdom out of the wilds of the New World)
• New Arcadia (A French-speaking North American democracy spreading from New Amsterdam to the North & West)

After a failure to reach a compromise on entry of new slave vs. non-slave states caused total disintegration of the union, elements of New England & the Great Lakes states joined Arcadia and 2 new nations arose from the ashes of the USA :

• Grand Republican Empire of Kalifexas - stretching from California to Texas, under the able leadership of Joshua Abraham Norton
• C.S.A. (Creole States of America) a sort of anti-Golden Circle forged from the slave rebellions of the Caribbean, free American Blacks, and the Acadians of Louisiana, with New Orleans as its capital.

Orientals

• Golden Khanate (from Krakow, across the steppes of Central Asia (capital at Samarkand), and even into Alaska)
• Middle Kingdom ( a “mandate of heaven” unifying China, Korea, & Japan)
• Bharata Varsha (Greater India, having repulsed the Mongol invasions & currently dealing with European mercantile colonialism)
• Sri Vijaya - ( a thalassocracy based in Java)

Empires of the Crescent

• River of Ma’at ( an Egyptian theocracy)
• Andalusian Caliphate (the Iberian Peninsula, across North Africa to Carthage, and up to Sicily)
• Byzantium (a syncretic culture, more Bogomil than Orthodox)
• Parthia (Carthage defeated Rome, and the culture of Zarathustra & Mani survived into modernity)

Lost Tribes

• Ajawil of Tikal (Mayan version of the Delian League, lead by Tikal)
• Abyssinia
• Bambara Empire
• Great Hoop (the Iroquois Confederacy expands to the shores of the Pacific)

Two groups without a strong central government - foils and sources for rare resources & guardians of victory points; probably not effectively playable civs:

• Primitive Tribes (scattered across islands & isolated valleys throughout Earth, and possibly beyond)
• Lizard Men (stand-ins for Tharks, Sagoths, & Morlocks)

Celestials

• Selenites (Luna)
• Mongons (Mongo & its inhabited moons)
• Orovars (Barsoomians)
• Amtorians (Venus)
• Agarthans (Hollow Earth)

 

[KingArthur]

Some excellent suggestions to cherry pick there. And some I had never heard of before and will need to google

Although my current emphasis is on the Lost Worlds (look out for a progress update soon), I am thinking about a total revamp for "Steampunk: Earth Conquests" as the variant on the World Map is coming to be known (name courtesy of Balthasar).

Here's the ones I like best from your list:

-The Dogal States - perhaps they would also have trading colonies in India and Far East -legacy of Marco Polo?

-The Hanseatic League - some nice competition for the Dogal States and perhaps have overseas trading colonies in the Carribean, Africa and Americas. Perhaps they even supplant a British presence in the New World?

-Grand Republican Empire of Kalifexas - you did say Norton would have a suitably grand name for his "Empire" and you certainly came up with one. Kalifexas LOL.

-Bharata Varsha - I was always going to have a stronger (unified) India in there: surely an India with command of Steam Elephants would be unstoppable (on land at least)

-River of Ma’at - I think an Egypt strongly flavoured by Ancient Egypt & Steampunk technology would be fascinating. I think they'd be strong on the more spiritual aspects of a Steampunk world particularly in dealings with the dead.

-Byzantium - I've always had a big thing for the Byzantines. They could be grand political schemers but funnily I'd prefer them as Orthodox: The Arrogant Bulwark of Europe!


Some I think are great but...

-Anglo Empire - I had thought of a different spin on this. A republic evolved from the English civil war where the Royalists never regained power, led by a Lord Protector. This would be a slightly dyspotic "Great" Britain with a populace oppressed/repressed by Puritan ideals. They would make interesting enemies for a Papal States Civ. Then I thought how quintessentialy steampunk "Victoriana" is and decided to keep the conventional/historic Victorian GB.

-Free Bohemia - but wouldn't they be lousy fighters?

-Sri Vijaya - I had these guys in in an earlier inception. Then I changed them to a trading empire of Siam that was a vassal state of China or at least closely tied to them. May still change them back though but I like Siam.

-The Great Hoop - I will stick though with my United Indian Territories led by Tecumseh (a fascinating individual). I have a great interest in and admiration of American Indian culture.

-Lost Tribes- yes need to have these in any steampunk world: a perfect antithesis to a techonological utopia/dystopia is a primitive paradise/barbarous land. My only contribution to this was going to be Dinosaurs, Great Apes and Amazon unit scattered throughout the world map (non-playable of course and possibly just barbarian units/camps).

-Celestials - On an Earth map they should not have a strong presence. I was going to have a few crash sites of a (botched) Selenite Expeditionary Force whose aim is to stop Earth's advanced civilisations from gaining spaceflight technology. Martians are a more logical choice but I wanted aliens who where perhaps not so overwhelmingly advanced and powerful. Also, I think Selenites rock LOL - an intelligent social insect race was a great imaginative creation by Verne considering he did it back in 1901(?).

Other ideas:
I always liked the idea of having ancient powers survive to modern times: Aztecs and Incas for instance. Even though these are wild suggestions I cannot force myself to disbelieve in an alternate reality where they do not survive. Actual history seems the most unfeasible outcome (you are always remarking that history is stranger than fiction) where Conquistadors numbering in hundreds (I know they had help from other natives and disease) brought down a large Empire. I have been many times around the British Museum in London and the Aztecs seem the most "alien" culture I have encountered.

 

[Blue Monkey]

River of Ma'at technology - there's the whole pyramids / ark as power sources thing & the whole possibilities of a sort of steampunk stargate thing - Tim Powers "Gates of Anubis"? & maybe some tie in to the war against that darned squid god.

Free Bohemia - maybe not a strong power in terms of conquest, but think about the whole "Huss Memorial Brigade" thing, liked happened in our world during the Spanish Civil War; that there's already a "Wobbly" bomb-throwing unit (invisible + hidden nationality); and that this is the culture (in my counterfactual history) that gave us Tesla. They could be pretty hard to successfully invade, & strong on culture flipping & espionage missions.

Primitive Tribes - I was thinking that this "weaker" civ ought to have some one-off non-buildable special units. Maybe guarding a victory point - like, say, a remote island with a giant ape. Or a rare resource guarded by an undead army. And I'd like them as a civ - so there would be the possibility of negotiation & trade. Although it could be fun to set them up so that they share colors & units with the barbarians. That could reflect the difficulties of colonial imperialists subduing the natives.

The extra-planetary civs should not, of course, be included in an "Earth Conquests" biq. My thinking on the celestials was that they not have access to technologies that would let them invade Earth. Bronze Age civs as Burroughs had them, with some slightly weird techs giving them some "unusual" units or improvements. Mongo might be a possible exception, although their spacecraft could be non-buildable and therefore limited. As to the contact thing - perhaps there could be some pre-placed units on Earth - they might conquer a city or two, but not really invade. In the "EQ" version, perhaps they could exist as special one-offs, autoproduced, or UUs for those civs (Ma'at?) with an Atlantean/Lemurian connection. Possibly, in "Sceptre & Orbs", teleportation tech as a late era counter to Earth's aetheric flyers.

I also thought it might be fun to go the other way, and place some of the more primitive Earth units, like some Mayans or Egyptians, on the other planets. "A mysterious hand in the prehistory of humanity". That way there would be some competition for the indigenous celestials. And of course the flagitious lizard men showing up everywhere, as a scatter-shot nuisance.

I did think about hyperlinking some of the civs, like Bambara, & Empire of Brasyl. I was under time pressure this morning. I can certainly explain any of them further, in answer to queries.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Further thoughts on my civ list -

Anglian Empire - It's definitely English. And it's still quite Victorian: the root thought of this alternative was "So, your father's German, you're half-German, and you married a German?" Only the name has changed, to reflect the AH aspects.

Byzantium - My only objection to it remaining officially Orthodox was the stifling imposition of Orthodoxy. I see part of its ability to survive into the eras of the mod as a cultural syncretism combining open-minded elements of European & Middle Eastern cultures. Greek Culture + Arabic Practical Science if you will.

Colonialism: All the Euros, as well as Bharata, Parthia, & Sri Vijaya, will have at least one colony in Africa. Sri Vijaya & the Middle Kingdom similarly on the west coast of the Americas & 2-3 of the Euros + Andalusia on the east. Sri Vijaya & Anglia get a couple of Hong Kong type locations in Asia, whilst Sri Vijaya & Middle Kingdom have countervailing spots on Australia. And of course the Hansa all over the place.

With 3 open civ slots, I'm thinking of including:

• Lemuria (an evolved Polynesia?)
• Some sort of "Empire of Fear" type monstrosity (put some units like those zombies, unspeakable horrors, etc. to use in the period of their original apocalypse).
• La Société Diabolique Secrète (excellent idea guys!) - developed along the lines it followed in the old "World of Jules Verne" scenario from Civ II. Very limited growth except by conquest or espionage & a panoply of expensive but exclusive units.

 

[Moosezilla]

I just saw a show about the 7 wonders and saw that the temple of artimis may trace to the amazons...

 

[7ronin]

I'm late to the party but here are some ideas. Make Egypt and Arabia part of the Ottoman Empire. That frees up two more civs. The world of Steampunkdom must have some mysterious civs - perhaps Timbuktu or Shangrila. If nothing else make them cities with some unique wonders that can only be built them.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm late to the party but here are some ideas. Make Egypt and Arabia part of the Ottoman Empire. That frees up two more civs. The world of Steampunkdom must have some mysterious civs - perhaps Timbuktu or Shangrila. If nothing else make them cities with some unique wonders that can only be built them.

Check out discussions of "Lost Worlds" & "Sceptre & Orbs" in our map-making thread.

 

[7ronin]

Hikaro mentioned Miyazaki's films Laputa and Howl's Moving Castle as offering some Steampunk inspiration. There is another Miyazaki film, Porco Rosso (Crimson Pig), which has air pirates of the Adriatic Sea as a major theme. Is there room for any air pirates in the Steam Punk universe?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Is there room for any air pirates in the Steam Punk universe?

There are certainly dirigibles with commandos, & such figures as Ker Karraje (a Vernian pirate) along with their minions. I'm not sure about a piratical civ, such as the Orang Laut, but given that there are four variant biqs at some stage of development I wouldn't discount that possibility.

 

[Moosezilla]

Lest we forget "underground" favorite "Micky Mouse vs. the Air Pirates Funnies"!

 

[Blue Monkey]

Lest we forget "underground" favorite "Micky Mouse vs. the Air Pirates Funnies"!

How a bout a link??

 

[Moosezilla]

yeah, me and what armies of lawyers? Disney won't let you see it. look in wiki