Are "Cultural Heritage Sites" a bad idea for culture / tourism victory?

[Brutus2]

I'm working on a strategy for Egypt going for a tourism victory. Naturally as Egypt I'm building lots of wonders, focusing on the ones that have great work slots. When I had a chance to propose a world congress resolution, I went for Cultural Heritage Sites (+3 culture from each world wonder). Because of the number of wonders I'm building, this is a very nice culture boost and seems a no brainer choice for Egypt.

But here is the issue... everyone else gets that +3 culture per wonder also. Since culture is the defense against tourism, that resolution is giving every other civ a direct boost to their ability to hold off my tourism and only indirectly helping me with quicker policies but not directly helping my tourism.

So the question is, if I'm trying to spread my tourism to other civs is it a bad idea to give the whole world a boost to their culture or is the increased culture I'm getting from all my wonders worth it??

Are Cultural Heritage Sites actually a bad idea for anyone going for a culture win?

 

[dadam88]

I would say no, it will help you feel out the idealogy tree faster which usually has huge boost to tourism.

If you are Egypt this means you have like almost all of the world wonders? So you will mainly be benefiting, probably an extra 30 cpt

 

[Deau]

You wish to delay it as late as possible in the game. They do compound into tourism with the modern/atomic era buildings (airport and hotel) but early in the game, the +3 culture only helps AI "runaway" from your nearly inexistent tourism.

So as a general statement, its best not to have it than to have it as the first or second voted resolution.

 

[Crafty Bison]

If you have a high enough proportion of the wonders, even going for it early is fine, as the extra culture will help you through aesthetics or to the tourism bonuses from your ideology. I've found the really strong resolutions for a culture win are world religion and obviously world games at the end. I've got mixed feelings about things like arts funding, however, because others get the extra GWAM production too. The world fair is also a risk because if you miss the gold then the civ that gets it will get a massive boost.

 

[_megafone_]

Your culture also turns into tourism in the late game. Since you have more Wonders than anybody else (hopefully), you get more benefit off the resolution than everyone else.

I actually ALWAYS attempt this resolution, since most AIs like it and I like having friends.

 

[newarkinvaders]

I think anybody that has a world wonder will increase how much they like you if you propose this , which can be important as getting them to open their borders is vital in cultural .

 

[Brutus2]

You wish to delay it as late as possible in the game. They do compound into tourism with the modern/atomic era buildings (airport and hotel) but early in the game, the +3 culture only helps AI "runaway" from your nearly inexistent tourism.

So as a general statement, its best not to have it than to have it as the first or second voted resolution.

I tend to agree with you. In my recent game, this was the first resolution passed. I was no where near getting an ideology yet so I think it slowed my tourism spread more than it helped me.

There are so many wonders in the game now that I think even Egypt has to focus on the ones that help your victory condition. I was able to build every wonder with a GW slot, every national wonder and a few other world wonders that I wanted in Thebes but that didnt stop other civs from getting wonders as well.

I think once you get an ideology and can build hotels and/or airports, thats the time to shoot for Cultural Heritage Sites.

 

[Elz Majesto]

That +3 Culture per wonder wont mean much for the AI once you Research Internet and have 800+ Tourism raining down on the opposition. Just make sure you build yourself the Great Firewall also!

Landmark sites are a beast, if you get freedom tenet "New Deal" and you pass the resolution, they yield up to +15 culture.

 

[Dtekkar]

Assuming a similar number of wonders between players, and a few more for the runaways, before you have hotels and airports, you are just helping the others defend their ideologies by boosting the culture on these. After you have hotels, adding more culture to them helps your tourism a lot, so it's a lot more favorable. You definitely want them, but preferably delay them until at least after hotels are up.

Edit - fix misinformation

 

[Deau]

Assuming a similar number of wonders between players, and a few more for the runaways, before you have hotels and airports, you are just helping the others defend their ideologies by boosting the culture on these. After you have hotels, adding more culture to them helps your tourism a lot, so it's a little more favorable, but still largely a wash (mostly just helps you take more policies at this point). You definitely want them, but preferably delay them until at least after hotels and ideally after airports.

Actually, after hotels + airports, the benefits are not "just a wash". The culture converts to raw base tourism and thus receives the many % multipliers of late game tourism. First, the set of internal multipliers is applied (+34% broadcast towers, +50% if enacted world religion, +100% the internet, doubled effect for that national wonder I forget the name). This will boost your late game GM by more than the raw CPT of AIs so just with this, for the tourism gained from cultural heritage to be offset by the increase in CPT of the AI over the same period, they'd need to use at least as many GW culture bulbs to offset the increase to tourism from GMs.

Then you also have the other peaceful modifiers like diplomats, open border, shared religion and ideology that can improve TPT-CPT even further in favor of the CV player. Obviously however you need at least some wonders to make this worthwhile.

 

[Dtekkar]

Actually, after hotels + airports, the benefits are not "just a wash". The culture converts to raw base tourism and thus receives the many % multipliers of late game tourism. First, the set of internal multipliers is applied (+34% broadcast towers, +50% if enacted world religion, +100% the internet, doubled effect for that national wonder I forget the name). This will boost your late game GM by more than the raw CPT of AIs so just with this, for the tourism gained from cultural heritage to be offset by the increase in CPT of the AI over the same period, they'd need to use at least as many GW culture bulbs to offset the increase to tourism from GMs.

Then you also have the other peaceful modifiers like diplomats, open border, shared religion and ideology that can improve TPT-CPT even further in favor of the CV player. Obviously however you need at least some wonders to make this worthwhile.

You're pretty much right, I was a bit fast and loose with my comment.

Although I said it is a wash around hotels, and lucrative starting at airports. And no one here is debating its worth post-internet & national visitor center. At that point it is obviously advantageous. You will likely have airports before the 2 information era techs The Internet & Telecommunications (to start the national visitor center).

I don't have a mathematically precise answer, which is what I suspect the OP was looking for. Having not seen anyone take up that charge in this thread, I offered the gist I got from playing a dozen games of BNW in case he that advice is enough.

 

[Deau]

What fraction of the wonders you won should be taken into account. If you've hit tier3 freedom already, that too should be considered. World religion is a fairly rare enact and certainly would change the circumstances. If you spread enough religion to elect yourself the world religion (or can just overpower the vote), then you are doing very well and probably don't need advice.

Enacting your religion isn't so much about spreading it tbh. It is about allying as many CS as possible and maybe (worst case scenario if you can't sustain enough CS allies), trade some GPT for 3 votes to a few civs which you have diplomats in their capital.

I've had it successfully enacted in a game I had only spread to 2 civs and a few CSs but had like 22 CS allies. However, it is a WC proposal that should be delayed to the late game. It is far too diplomacy-costly to go for it in the early game. Similarly, enacting your ideology is even worse diplomacy-wise. Enough that it is generally better, for CV, to just rely on GM pops rather than attempt to force ideology swap.

In general, even if you spread your religion to every single civ, the WC proposal will still get you a lot of hatred from the other 4 civs (on standard size maps) that have founded a religion.

And then I am sorry for somehow reading your original post short. However, due to the shear nature of GM concert tours, I would generally prefer enacting CH around hotels even though it is still detrimental at that point in time as it allows to select the world religion proposal later in the game and thus delay the diplo penalty (loss of RAs and some lump sum trading) late enough that it does not matter nearly as much.