iammaxhailme
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2015
- Messages
- 2,021
I don't think mountains need a nerf, rather I think tall/high pop needs a buff.
[GS] Are Mountains OP?
- Thread starter acluewithout
- Start date
acluewithout
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2017
- Messages
- 3,496
I think there are three different issues: are mountains OP? Are Campuses OP? and are Campus Buildings OP?
I don't think Mountains are OP (thread title notwithstanding), but they do seem to shape the early game more than any other feature on the map. No Mountains usually means flat land and a tough start, although sometimes that can be heaps of fun. Lots of Mountain usually means the AI is blocked, and the game will be easy even leaving aside Campuses.
If we're talking Campuses instead of Mountains, then yeah Campuses are massively OP but adjacencies are only a small part of that. Mountains + Geothermals can lead to some absurd yields, more so if you have any Civ ability adjacency abilities as well. But the real problem with Campuses is just that they come so early, and you can spam them so easily, plus you can stack City State Bonuses.
Campuses would work much better if they unlocked much later (so that early game you needed to find other sources of science), required more significant investment and or maintenance (so building campuses had more opportunity cost) and City State bonuses were only ever in your capital not in District Buildings (because those City State yields per District Building are just crazy powerful).
I don't think Mountains are OP (thread title notwithstanding), but they do seem to shape the early game more than any other feature on the map. No Mountains usually means flat land and a tough start, although sometimes that can be heaps of fun. Lots of Mountain usually means the AI is blocked, and the game will be easy even leaving aside Campuses.
If we're talking Campuses instead of Mountains, then yeah Campuses are massively OP but adjacencies are only a small part of that. Mountains + Geothermals can lead to some absurd yields, more so if you have any Civ ability adjacency abilities as well. But the real problem with Campuses is just that they come so early, and you can spam them so easily, plus you can stack City State Bonuses.
Campuses would work much better if they unlocked much later (so that early game you needed to find other sources of science), required more significant investment and or maintenance (so building campuses had more opportunity cost) and City State bonuses were only ever in your capital not in District Buildings (because those City State yields per District Building are just crazy powerful).
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,834
I fully acknowledge that getting good adjacency bonuses is a good deal of what makes the game fun, so obviously there's a line here between balancing and not killing the game. So yes, adjacency bonuses should not become so small that they cease to matter. On the other hand, getting massive adjacency bonuses right from the start unarguably does create massive balance issues as it is. Again, I'm not arguing for full symmetry between all starting situations, because then there's no game left to play, but I do think system could become better than just getting a flat +4/5/6 or whatever you can get them up to right from the ancient era. There's a reason that farm adjacencies, just to mention one thing, scale throughout the game. The same could be applied to districts - a prime example as mentioned by acluewithout above: Why do campuses get a +2 science bonus from geothermal fissures in the ancient era when that feature is literally unusable until something like the atomic era?
Personally I still think mountains ARE overpowered. And it's not just the fact that the mountain bonuses themselves seem to be too high, it's also the fact that they apply to BOTH science AND religion and that there are no other features that have an impact even close to that. If we look at the four early-game paths to develop - science, religion, culture or military - mountains give major bonuses to both science and religion, while there is literally nothing on the map that gives major - in fact not even minor - bonuses to culture and military districts. So it's literally a case of either you get everything (you have mountains) or you get nothing (you don't).
Of course, that does not mean there aren't other aspects of the campus and (science) game in general that needs looking into. The stacking yields in all cities for CS envoys indeed seems to be an issue. Yields from campus buildings - particularly the university - needs to be tweaked (read: nerfed). And yes, on a greater scale, the game really needs an overall rework that better reflects the impact of large population on science.
Personally I still think mountains ARE overpowered. And it's not just the fact that the mountain bonuses themselves seem to be too high, it's also the fact that they apply to BOTH science AND religion and that there are no other features that have an impact even close to that. If we look at the four early-game paths to develop - science, religion, culture or military - mountains give major bonuses to both science and religion, while there is literally nothing on the map that gives major - in fact not even minor - bonuses to culture and military districts. So it's literally a case of either you get everything (you have mountains) or you get nothing (you don't).
Of course, that does not mean there aren't other aspects of the campus and (science) game in general that needs looking into. The stacking yields in all cities for CS envoys indeed seems to be an issue. Yields from campus buildings - particularly the university - needs to be tweaked (read: nerfed). And yes, on a greater scale, the game really needs an overall rework that better reflects the impact of large population on science.
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,257
Probably
Library -- 90 production, +2 science
University -- 250 production, +4 Science,
Workshop -- 195 Production +3 production (65 turns just to break even?)
Bank -- 290 Production +5 gold (lol... if you buy a bank it takes 232 turns for it to break even. RIP)
Arena -- 150 Production +1 amenity (....)
Shrine -- 70 production +2 faith (actually this is really good)
Temple -- 120 production +4 faith
But yeaaa; pound for pound, Holy Sites and Campuses have the best buildings in addition to being strong districts.
Yeah, campuses especially get the bonus that their T1 buildings are ancient era, so come in much cheaper than other districts. And then the fact that science is king.
I think a worthwhile change could be to push the campus back to essentially the time of universities, moving the library to be a city-centre building. That would sort of mirror culture more too, with the monument being a cultural building that you don't need a theatre square for. Presumably you'd need to find a new way to create ancient era great scientists, but it would certainly limit how early you could reap those massive science yields early on. You'd obviously then need to make some new campus buildings, and do a bunch of other rebalancing, although having the ability to have a library in every city without needing a campus may not actually reduce early game science all that much.
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
I really need to see what happens when you double the cost of both Techs and Civics but also double the amount of Culture and Science from population.
I realised if we took that approach then Seowons actually get nerfed quite nicely without lowering their value...
Pure24
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2019
- Messages
- 191
I agree.
I think farms need a buff. After all agriculture IS production. It is one of THE most productive industries in the world. Perhaps giving farms +2 production from the off. Would make them OP and preferable to hills and mines in certain instances.
But they don't get more production with time, and so mines match them at Apprenticeship and quickly surpass them. This way, flat starts are viable. Farms could also get +1 science, while mountains get nerfed to a minor adjacency bonus, upgraded to a standard bonus at Astronomy.
That would make flat starts viable at science as well, and able to compete with hill/mountain ones, albeit with a little work added. That's fine; different terrain, different strategies
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2005
- Messages
- 5,257
I did pick on the Holy Site. They're excellent investments later in the game because they have very cost efficient buildings. I was also typing my above posts and realized how terrible banks are
You dare to question that a Holy Site near to mighty Zeus on his mountain throne should not get more faith? Campus is picked on because there are alternatives to faith like gold or production but not science.
I agree but then you just have a library spam. Maybe ave two buildings: Library with only Science and Academy with only Great Scientist points. Then at least there a small decision to be made.
acluewithout
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2017
- Messages
- 3,496
Yeah, I think the Campus should be pushed back to Universities. I don't think a Library in the City Centre, basically a Science Monument, is a good idea though because you would still just spam libraries in all your Cities.
Honestly, I don't think an early Science building is needed. There's plenty of science to be had from trade routes etc. Maybe you'd earn Science from other buildings like Markets etc. I'm sure something could be figured out.
I think the difference is maybe the relative value of Science & Culture yields versus Faith, Gold and Cog yields. Also, Holy Sites are a bit more of a faff to get to versus Campuses, so aren't quite as spamable. And there are also more reasons to not build Holy Sites near Mountains (eg pantheons), so personally I don't feel as bullied into searching out Mountain spots for Holy Sites.
I think if Campuses were just nerfed in general (eg pushed back to Universities) then Mountains would be more balanced. But I can't see FXS really doing much to rebalance Campuses - the things that are unbalanced about Campuses are basically baked into the game now and would require too much work from FXS to re-work. I think FXS also want players to have an easy source of Science (i.e. the very thing I don't want in the game), to make the game more accessible to casual players. So, other than house rules (I only build three Campuses) or Mods, I think we're stuck with the current balance.
Last edited:
cvb
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2017
- Messages
- 446
In context with Campuses I have 2 notes, the latter inspired by acluewithout a while ago:
- University +4 Science -> +3 Science
- Limit for the human player the number of adjacencies of Campuses to 8-12(?) until Tech Education
So should this number of Campus-adjacencies be decreased? 8-12 being about 2 good or 3 normal campuses (& libraries).
"Campus should be pushed back to Universities" would mean zero campus until then.
.
Sostratus
Deity
Almost every proposal like this (which I myself am a fan of, by the way) include giving libraries as the science analog to monuments, or some method to keep early tech progression intact
Keep in mind that Industrial Zones only come at Apprenticeship, yet because there are other sources of production, it's seen as okay.
People are able to get to Theater Squares on the back on monuments, even though they are a classical era district. Campuses being literally one of the first techs in the entire game is part of the issue - there is no breathing room, campuses are so effective that you get writing and immediately pump the gas. I feel fairly confident that pushing them back a bit would provide a better early game experience because you could not tech rush without leveraging eurekas. (For the record I don't see city center libraries being worse than city center monuments. The G Scientist point need not stay attached to them.)
Well, many people's strats don't invole fast-tracking monuments as soon they're available. Lord knows I don't. It's a small enough bonus that some folks would just as soon work from pure pop.
The difference would be that you don't have the library-eclipsing yields that can be derived from adjacency bonuses when mountain ranges are available.
And that brings me to wondering why we have pantheons that boost things yields other than faith (production & culture), but nothing for science. Maybe it's because campuses come early now. Should it get pushed back, then now science-boost pantheons gain validity.
I think the devs have shown a willingness to make significant rebalancing passes. They have done overhauls to both the culture and science victories in VI. And in V, let us remember there was back-to-the-drawing board reinvention of the culture system late in its life cycle. Culture was like science, just an accrual that pushed the player towards unlocking a late-game production sink. Occasionally a great artist would spawn and could trigger a golden age. No great works, no tourism.. More extreme than anything proposed here.
So, keep hope alive.
In terms of keeping the the three-tier building system preserved here in some fashion, maybe the library unlocks at Writing, and then at Mathematics you unlock the campus and get the first building, e.g. an academy.
Of course, it's always nice when buildings actually *do* something besides generate a yield. You build a market to get a trade route, and the bank and stock exchange are just filler. You build a shrine to get missionaries, temples to get apostles. Armories get you military engineers, and military academies let you build armies. Harbor, entertainment complexes, and water parks all have differentiation between buildings. And of course, with theater square buildings there's a whole subsystem to differentiate them besides a yield boost.
Last edited:
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,834
Or, like we talked about earlier, bring back the Observatory (at Astronomy) for science yields from adjacent mountain(s). And could have an alternative building, the Wildlife Station, for science yield from (adjacent) jungles, reefs and maybe ice (arctic research).
Starting building with +1 science for 60/65 production should be ok. Then change library to +0/1 and +1 per 5 pop, and universities to +2 and +2 per 10 pop. There would be something to reward really big cities and maybe not so worth rushing campus in new cities.
Banks and stock exchanges should give something like +10/15% to gold output. Keep in mind international routes could give too large numbers. So maybe 5/10% and +2/3 base. EDIT3: I think this needs some flavour. Tying it with trade routes would be too op, as it would make them too strong. Bank could boost chopping copper for 50% boost and percentage bonus to gold could be tied to silver and diamonds - +3% per resource. Stock exchange instead +3% per any luxury resource.
Arena should be buffed (it does not give GPP) to give bonus towards international trade routes like +1 gold per 10/20 city tourism output from sources before industrial/modern era (there should be something to make international early trade routes worth and tying it with tourism makes some sense).
Workshop is ok since production is op and without specific abilities you need it for districts. Chopping should be halved probably btw. EDIT2: It should be ok, nerfing chopping and going with something like +50% to production from chopping trees in cities with workshop and nerfing base production to +2.
Make shrines +1 and +1 if following religion. Add another 2nd tier building, and temple should be like +2 and +2 for every relics in this city (kongo cannot build it, so its safe) and second +2 and +1 for every religious great work in this city (maybe +2 if themed or 2 in this building) with place for one.
Mountains are op only for Inca. Still changing library and university should nerf them as you cannot grow much surrounded by mountains. Probably with these changes Inca should be nerfed a bit like changing their food bonus to mountains to 1 per 2 terrace farms or trade routes to 1 per 2 mountains.
There should be interaction with the player. Make base as little as possible to make not really worth buildings without preparations like water mill. This will also make cities more specialized which is imo good. Ofc numbers can be changed.
EDIT:
Oh, and imo military units could get +1 maintenance + if trained in city with encampment reduce it by 1. So it would be harder to spam archers like madman. And it would add more value to early gold. Now its always better taking production, because you cannot buy district in ancient era.
Banks and stock exchanges should give something like +10/15% to gold output. Keep in mind international routes could give too large numbers. So maybe 5/10% and +2/3 base. EDIT3: I think this needs some flavour. Tying it with trade routes would be too op, as it would make them too strong. Bank could boost chopping copper for 50% boost and percentage bonus to gold could be tied to silver and diamonds - +3% per resource. Stock exchange instead +3% per any luxury resource.
Arena should be buffed (it does not give GPP) to give bonus towards international trade routes like +1 gold per 10/20 city tourism output from sources before industrial/modern era (there should be something to make international early trade routes worth and tying it with tourism makes some sense).
Workshop is ok since production is op and without specific abilities you need it for districts. Chopping should be halved probably btw. EDIT2: It should be ok, nerfing chopping and going with something like +50% to production from chopping trees in cities with workshop and nerfing base production to +2.
Make shrines +1 and +1 if following religion. Add another 2nd tier building, and temple should be like +2 and +2 for every relics in this city (kongo cannot build it, so its safe) and second +2 and +1 for every religious great work in this city (maybe +2 if themed or 2 in this building) with place for one.
Mountains are op only for Inca. Still changing library and university should nerf them as you cannot grow much surrounded by mountains. Probably with these changes Inca should be nerfed a bit like changing their food bonus to mountains to 1 per 2 terrace farms or trade routes to 1 per 2 mountains.
There should be interaction with the player. Make base as little as possible to make not really worth buildings without preparations like water mill. This will also make cities more specialized which is imo good. Ofc numbers can be changed.
EDIT:
Oh, and imo military units could get +1 maintenance + if trained in city with encampment reduce it by 1. So it would be harder to spam archers like madman. And it would add more value to early gold. Now its always better taking production, because you cannot buy district in ancient era.
Last edited:
Those are actually standard bonuses: +1 for each mountain tile.
Major is a +2 bonus. Minor is +0.5.
But I don't disagree with you. It's easy to get +4/5/6 science and holy sites from mountains.
ehecatzin
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,863
The one thing I'd like to see buffed / reworked is specialized pops to work district buildings, high adjacency should be diminished if you don't have pops working in that district, maybe it could even make specialized high pop cities with no adjacencies be able to compete.
Now talking about adjacencies, I'd love to be able to increase those yields by developing said tiles, for example being able to build an observatory on a mountains or biosphere reserve on jungles adjacent to campus.
Now talking about adjacencies, I'd love to be able to increase those yields by developing said tiles, for example being able to build an observatory on a mountains or biosphere reserve on jungles adjacent to campus.
Generally, the building system provides three buildings separated by at least two eras. If you're moving the campus from ancient, where are you moving it to? I'd say no later than classical, because it'd be odd to move a district that you're using for a victory condition to the mid-game. You could have a university at the classical era, given that academies are basically the same thing, and the Greeks had those. Then there'd be a vacancy around the renaissance era. All those biome buildings sound like they'd be biome-conditional, and some civ's might find themselves being unable to build them.
Could have some kind of subsystem where civ's can launch research expeditions, allowing universities to build surveyor units, kinda similar to archaeologists, or maybe work similarly to those great scientists that can generate science from certain types of terrain tiles.
I still believe that the fact that most districts only have one slot with two choices for a building is a missed opportunity. It would be wonderful to add back in more buildings for more player choices. Instead of a bank, what if I want a customs house, focusing between a more stable internal gold production or a more volatile but more rewarding foreign trade route bonus? What if I have an observatory instead of a university, to increase that sweet mountain bonus, but it can only be built in those areas? And also not to mention the pitiful neighborhood options, which there could be a plethora of, and is also stifled by only being able to build one neighborhood building at ALL no matter how many neighborhoods you need?
Probably a topic for another thread, but gets me thinking.
