Are there really no tile improvements that can be built on tundra, desert, and snow?

[isau]

What non-unique improvements can you put on plains/grassland in civ6? A farm. That's it.
Where's the decision making there? (besides deciding whether to spend the builder charge....)

The inter-tile dependencies that Civ6 introduces do add some interesting complexity and problem solving to city layout, but the fundamental diversity of tile improvements just isn't there.
On tiles without resources, it's pretty much Farms or Mines. (or in the case of Tundra, neither)

Depends on what you mean by "improvement."

The literal answer is "only a farm" because that what Builders can put there, but Districts mean, at a minimum, there are 9 other things you could put there.

Civ 6 compared to any previous civ involves much more decision making about each tile. IMO there is no contest. Especially because once Districts get involved you even have to consider which city will place it if you've got a few close together. Thebe's Commercial district is distinct from Cairo's. That's a ton of decision making.

 

[x2Madda]

Staal said many things.

I think the fundamental difference is that even though we are playing the same game, we are probably playing it very differently and your talk of re-rolling confirms that.

I play online games so I can't just re-roll and I also play Civfanatic's game of the month (or practice for them) so again, no re-rolling there either, or I play to improve my skill level and again, no point re-rolling that either.

I have played upto 80hrs now and I can tell you that lack of nearby hammers is a serious issue. The bigger question is 'why?'. I remember Jungle starts in civ5 were horrible, moreso because it took so long to get out of the jungle in addition to its lack of hammers, but in civ6, you WANT to cram as many cities as possible, in as short a space as possible. Why? District bonuses, for example the industry district and amentity district have buildings that offer bonuses in a area of 6 tiles away.

They can turn even a dead city productive, but that is back end. No hammers are front loaded in civ6 which is why deforestation outside your borders is becoming more common.

 

[Staal]

I think the fundamental difference is that even though we are playing the same game, we are probably playing it very differently and your talk of re-rolling confirms that.

I play online games so I can't just re-roll and I also play Civfanatic's game of the month (or practice for them) so again, no re-rolling there either, or I play to improve my skill level and again, no point re-rolling that either.

I have played upto 80hrs now and I can tell you that lack of nearby hammers is a serious issue. The bigger question is 'why?'. I remember Jungle starts in civ5 were horrible, moreso because it took so long to get out of the jungle in addition to its lack of hammers, but in civ6, you WANT to cram as many cities as possible, in as short a space as possible. Why? District bonuses, for example the industry district and amentity district have buildings that offer bonuses in a area of 6 tiles away.

They can turn even a dead city productive, but that is back end. No hammers are front loaded in civ6 which is why deforestation outside your borders is becoming more common.

No, your assumption is very wide from the mark. I don't reroll at all. I generally play everything standard, random leader and play to victory or defeat as often as I can. I like the fluctuation in fortunes and I want to win regardless of the start. I was suggesting that YOU may reroll if you want a glorious start every time.

I just fundamentally disagree that there is a general shortage of hammers. You just need to focus on developing your terrain and building an industrial zone.

 

[dexters]

I built a neighborhood on snow. breathtaking view so max housing. nice to see useless yeild tiles find a home.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

For Russia I like to plant forests in Tundra, then build Lumbermills in the forest. That does come quite late in the game though.

This. You can't do much with Tundra most of the game, but at late game you should plant forests and build lumber mills on them.

 

[Zhahz]

To me this is another instance of complaining about a non issue - a common theme for any new iteration of civ (ok, kidding, a common theme period).

As has been illustrated by many replies, there are things that can be built on tundra.

You don't have to settle on tundra.

Every city doesn't have to be a 20+ pop mega city. Some can have strategic value or lower pop and still be useful.

 

[Takfloyd]

No, your assumption is very wide from the mark. I don't reroll at all. I generally play everything standard, random leader and play to victory or defeat as often as I can. I like the fluctuation in fortunes and I want to win regardless of the start. I was suggesting that YOU may reroll if you want a glorious start every time.

I just fundamentally disagree that there is a general shortage of hammers. You just need to focus on developing your terrain and building an industrial zone.

You are full-on ignore-all-flaws defence force here if you think it's okay that hills are the only way to get decent production.

In Civ IV, if you had no hills, you could still build workshops or watermills to gain production. In Civ VI, where everything costs way too much and production is your most valuable commodity, no city without hills will EVER be useful. It doesn't matter how many floodplains and bonus resources it has - it will just plain never be able to build districts, units, wonders or buildings at an acceptable rate.

 

[mazz0]

I like the fact that some tiles are crap. The fact most tiles were good in Civ V spoiled it for me - it took away the excitement of spotting some good land and getting it.

Not being able to build farms by oasis though, I don't like that. They were great things to find in Civ V, not so much in Civ VI. Unless they have absurdly high appeal? That could be nice, they could be a great tourist spot.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You are full-on ignore-all-flaws defence force here if you think it's okay that hills are the only way to get decent production.

In Civ IV, if you had no hills, you could still build workshops or watermills to gain production. In Civ VI, where everything costs way too much and production is your most valuable commodity, no city without hills will EVER be useful. It doesn't matter how many floodplains and bonus resources it has - it will just plain never be able to build districts, units, wonders or buildings at an acceptable rate.

Forests are useful for production (assuming you don't chop all of them, and late game all plain/grass tiles can be forested)

They should probably balance the starting spots more so that you are guaranteed some good starting production, but beyond that... its good that some areas are bad and some are good.

 

[Disgustipated]

I completely forgot that you can plant forests in this game. What tech unlocks that?

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

I completely forgot that you can plant forests in this game. What tech unlocks that?

Can't be sure without checking, late game though, might be the same one that allows you to build naturalists?
Certainly not early enough for it to make flat areas useful. It's basically hills, or bust.

Burn pop for production? Nope.
Use stop-gap sub-optimal tile improvements to bolster your production? Nope.
Focus on cash, and buy your infrastructure? Nope.

Mines + industrial district, then when your cash starts to run low, diversify into docks, commercial districts & trade routes.
No point in science districts; as your high production will allow you to hit all your inspiration bonuses & the intrinsic science output of your population will do the rest.
Religion & Culture have their niche, though they both require production to kick-start.
I also find Religion rather annoying to manage, and culture is incredibly boring (and neither can stop bullets)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Can't be sure without checking, late game though, might be the same one that allows you to build naturalists?
Certainly not early enough for it to make flat areas useful. It's basically hills, or bust.

Burn pop for production? Nope.
Use stop-gap sub-optimal tile improvements to bolster your production? Nope.
Focus on cash, and buy your infrastructure? Nope.

Mines + industrial district, then when your cash starts to run low, diversify into docks, commercial districts & trade routes.
No point in science districts; as your high production will allow you to hit all your inspiration bonuses & the intrinsic science output of your population will do the rest.
Religion & Culture have their niche, though they both require production to kick-start.
I also find Religion rather annoying to manage, and culture is incredibly boring (and neither can stop bullets)

Which means its fine... as long as your starting area has some good hills/forests/bonus production

 

[x2Madda]

You are full-on ignore-all-flaws defence force here

It's okay, we had this we Civ:BE too. Thankfully the whims of the few are overridden by the will of the many. We know their is a real early game hammer issue and hopefully, firaxis does too.

I also found it especially puzzling when this was said...

You just need to focus on developing your terrain and building an industrial zone.

Because my first 3 city is going to have access to a mid game tech and the hammers to make such a district when i'm hammer starved.

As the saying goes, you can lead a camel to water...Or you can kill it because why are you even using a camel.

 

[Atlas627]

I really don't see a problem. I have had a game or 2 that I threw away because it spawned me on a giant desert with a windy river and flood plains, though. I had few valid tiles for Districts due to the flood plains, very little production, and tons of food but still hit the housing cap. That should probably not be counted as valid land for anyone that isnt Egypt.

Other than that, you can make do with a low-production start, so long as you find some production for your 2nd or 3rd city. That doesn't seem like a problem for me, its a reasonable strategic choice. And if you really must, you can get by on Gold with Commercial Hubs and Harbors, and then use Trade routes. Yeah you can't build more districts with gold, but science and culture production is super fast anyway. Just use the gold to convert into science/culture with eurekas/inspirations.

 

[mr_j936]

If I am not mistaken, I planted a forest over a tundra with a builder, then built a sawmill on that, does that count?

 

[x2Madda]

Yeah you can't build more districts with gold

I think this is what bothers me the most. We know the gold selling exploit will be fixed soon but when it is, I really hope we will be able to buy districts with gold.
It isn't that I am zealous about hammer starts, its that flat terrain has its uses, more so now more needs to go "on the map", but I feel like I have to ignore any flatland early which doesn't feel right to me. Food has been devalued a little too much this time around.

 

[Atlas627]

I think this is what bothers me the most. We know the gold selling exploit will be fixed soon but when it is, I really hope we will be able to buy districts with gold.
It isn't that I am zealous about hammer starts, its that flat terrain has its uses, more so now more needs to go "on the map", but I feel like I have to ignore any flatland early which doesn't feel right to me. Food has been devalued a little too much this time around.

I totally agree Food is too weak right now, considering how plentiful it is.

But I don't think Districts should be purchaseable with gold. That's one of the things that makes gold different from cogs. However, districts need their production formula retuned a bit...

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'd rather they tweak starting locations over making deserts/tundra better. There are some places where it just really sucks to live; and if people decide to try, it's going to be difficult, and it's going to be for a very good reason.

 

[isau]

I think changing Hills from just +1 Hammer to + 1 Hammer, -1 Food would be an excellent fix. This would fix almost all the current issues. It's too easy to grow population and make hammers at the same time without sacrifice or an earnest attempt to grow population.

 

[UWHabs]

I'd rather they tweak starting locations over making deserts/tundra better. There are some places where it just really sucks to live; and if people decide to try, it's going to be difficult, and it's going to be for a very good reason.

Yeah, tundra and desert should be terrible terrain for most of the game. Late game, tundra I imagine would be a good place to throw your national parks (maybe all tundra should automatically be eligible for a national park?), but basically the middle east build Petra to be able to settle that desert, but otherwise there's not much going on in deserts in real life.

Only other thing bringing reality back in, would like there to be some penalty for plowing the rainforest. I know they do give some adjacency bonuses, but once you get past the early part of the game, it's too much of a benefit to simply clearing them. Even if there was a simple "camp" improvement that could be placed on them to give a small bonus starting in the mid-game, and a larger bonus later in the game, to keep pace, most of the time it definitely feels more useful to simply chop them and farm/mine/district over them. Or maybe something where when you chop a rainforest, there's a 50% chance that it turns into a desert instead of plains, so that the tile will essentially be useless once chopped?