Are we making mods for ourselves?

[Drift]

The way these forums have quieted down with the WH-mod's beta testing in its final phase got me thinking. Is this community making mods and scens primarily for its own members? DyP/RnR and WH-mod seem to be breaking barriers by ending up on a cover disk recently. Rest... Well, rest get most of their feedback from regulars. There are a number of high quality mods and scens here but there are times when I feel they're just examples of a terrible audience/effort ratio.

Yes, mods and scens are played and there are those who play but aren't either members or don't feel like voicing their opinions in the mod's thread. It however doesn't change the fact that each and every mod here - even the very successful ones - would deserve more publicity.

We have excellent mods and scens here, but how will a newbie Civ3 player ever know of their existence? Civ3.com lists 4 small modifications by Rob Cheng and the Player1-mod under "Civ3 mods". No link to CFC finished modpacks. Players have to find CFC and get used to forums as a download library first.

Is Civ3 modscene just so small that this is the best there is? Is the fault in the modders who usually don't make homepages for their mods and don't advertise them in any way? Should CFC start a list of prominent mod projects? Should Civ3.com start acknowledging mods and scenarios properly and at least tell where most of them are located? Does a problem exist at all - are mods getting all the attention they deserve?


Do you feel like you are creating primarily for this community?

Discuss, comment etc.

- Drift

 

[subbss]

I agree, Drift, I do feel like I at least, am creating only for this community. I also agree that civ3.com should be updated with more mods and list where they came from.

I do not think that scenario/mod makers should have to have a website or advertise by themselves. EDIT: Although web sites are nice (I do want people to be encouraged to make web sites).

It would be nice if the main civfanatics site (home page) had a listing of maybe the top five most popular or most complete mods/scenarios.

 

[MarineCorps]

I hate long posts. Summary please.

 

[Drift]

This is especially problematic since the mods and scens are better than ever. Conquests with its new options, loads of new high quality units, terrain graphcis, leaderheads, buildings & wonders... We have the tools to make mods that can compete with the main game's quality. The two forerunners - DyP/RnR and WH-mod are already doing just that. It's sad that the Civ3 as a whole has already seen its peak. In many ways, modding community is at its peak right now.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by MarineCorps
I hate long posts. Summary please.

Come on! It was an opening for a discussion - it's meant to have some length.

 

[Zurai]

While I *personally* have no problems with the audience/effort ratio, to use your term, I can see why it's a problem for other people.

It's not a problem for me, at the moment anyway, because I design mods for fun. I've been designing mods ever since I got my first moddable game, and I'm going into a career that is essentially designing mods on a grand scale. I love the act of creation, even if I'm the only person who ever knows my creation existed; it's what drives me through the rough days and makes the good days even better.


That being said, however, I would very much like to see mods getting wider distribution/recognition. I think Firaxis could use a HUGE improvement to their community building skills.

For what a *real* developer-community synergy looks like, check out Bioware and their relationship with the NeverWinter Nights community. For those that don't know, NWN is a PC roleplaying game that shipped with an incredibly in depth editor, and one of the selling points of the game was its extreme modability.

Bioware links to the main NWN mod website (NWVault) from their official NWN page, they run a sidebar with links to the top rated mods on that same main mod site, and they send out official notices when the really big projects hit milestones, such as the recent release of the Community Expansion Pack. The CEP was an entirely unofficial, player-driven effort to take the best graphics, scripts, etc from the community, standardize them so they all play nice together, tweak them to look/play/run better, and release them back into the community as one single download that every module builder could reliably use in their modules.

The entire CEP effort was 100% unofficial and 100% player-driven, and yet Bioware had a Countdown to CEP icon on their webpage just like they did for their own expansion packs! THAT is the kind of community building that puts Firaxis to shame.

 

[Drift]

Naturally the act of creation is a big thing in my book too. I love creating and designing and I would never do this unless I enjoyed it.

However, I made MoM primarily so I could share it with others. I wanted to make a successful mod people would like to play.

 

[Kindred72]

Originally posted by Drift
DyP/RnR and WH-mod seem to be breaking barriers by ending up on a cover disk recently.

What does this mean? What cover disk? I know there was a pre-order disk for conquests, but, WH-mod wasn't in there.

 

[Drift]

Originally posted by Kindred72
What does this mean? What cover disk?

Magazine cover disks. A representative from some magazine at least asked for embryodead's permission to add wh-mod to a cover disk. DyP was on some French magazine's cover disk - could've been on others too.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I agree with you, Drift.

If you look at the mods that are available on the official site, then they're minor modifications - like no civ traits or no unique units. Nowhere near the extent of the mods some of us have done on this forum. I think that the official site should link directly to some of the mods available, particularly ones like DYP and also Master of Myrror to demonstrate the range of what Civ can do. I know it has links to other sites on the links page, but people have to actively look what's out there, it's not staring them in the face. Even if they didn't do the direct link, they should have a feature on the site showing what's available in the civ community.

The coverdisk story has given me an idea. What if someone from this community approached a magazine like PC Format to suggest that they could do a coverdisk full of mods/units/downloads? I'm sure it would enhance sales of the magazine, probably more people would buy Civ 3 and also the mag could, in return, dedicate a page or so to showing what's on offer on the coverdisk? Those people might then join Civfanatics to see what other new stuff we have to offer......I'm sure that lots of people will see this as a bad idea and there might be all sorts of legal reasons why it can't be done....but its only a thought.

The thought of setting up a website for my forthcoming mod seems daunting to me (as well as potentially costly). Incidentally, Drift, your Kekkonnen leaderhead inspired me to start leaderhead creation and I've done my own version of Kekkonnen (era specific 3D) for my own mod, but more on that in the near future....

To answer the question that is the title of this thread - yes, I do think I'm creating stuff for Civfanatics only.

 

[embryodead]

To clear things up, WH-Mod can't be put on any cover CD because of copyright reasons. As far as I know, the magizine will include reviews of several Civ3 mods, WH-Mod being just one of them.

Generally, forget about cover discs etc., probably even links at civ3.com. Most of the mods here (meaning real mods, with custom artwork, not just rule changes) breach copyrights in one way or another, so any serious publicity may mean as well trouble, and companies must avoid this. Apart from units/buildings converted from other games, many freeware props for Poser are limited to personal use ie. our leaderheads are not really mine or your artwork, they contain 3d models, textures etc. made by other people. Sometimes you can buy the model with rights to use it for renders, sometimes you are limited to non-commercial use - and coverdiscs would break this rule. Same for Firaxis - they can't risk to promote stuff of questionable legal status. Remember the mods, ie. DyP at PTW disc? ...with 3/4 of the artwork removed.

Yes, we are making mods for ourselves, meaning the active civ3 community. If you want fame, you must enter the area that is ruled by strict copyright laws and big companies. I am pretty aware that going further in publicity may bring trouble to my mod, so I'm happy as it is. I'm pretty sure it costed Kal-el lots of effort and sacrifices to make DyP/RaR "compatible" with legal requirements (I haven't seen RaR, but I guess that was one of its aims). I would have to remove like 30 or 40 units from my mod, most buildings, then even units and leaderheads I made, which after all contain freeware props, or background photos found at google. No way...

 

[Drift]

Hey! Era specific 3d-Kekkonen!

Cover disks usually have their own editors that can be approached, but I think Civ3 is probably too old a game to dedicate whole coverdisc. for. Also, some of the largest mods are so big that they would eat up half of the disk. It's a nice idea, but I think we'll have to settle for occasional civ-mods among cover disks dedicated to different mods for games.

I'd rather see civ mods among the occasional mod reviews magazines do with a link to Civfanatics. In the era of broadbands cover disks are lagging behind.

A more active approach from Firaxis towards mods would definitely be appreciated.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Fair enough, guys, I knew there'd be reasons why we couldn't go with the coverdisk idea. Thanks for pointing them out.

I think, like Drift says, more pro-activity would be welcome from Firaxis. After all, it's mods that give Civ 3 greater lifespan IMHO.

 

[Drift]

Excellent points E.D. Also, thanks for clarifying some things.

The publicity is indeed a two edged sword. There are copyright issues, but I don't think the risk of them surfacing is very big as long as mods aren't distributed in a commercial fashion. However, there is a risk and it has to be taken into account.

I guess what I'm after is making the active civ community easier to approach and the existence of mods for Civ3 a better known fact. Firaxis is restricted in the way it can promote mods, but it could give Civfanatics the praise it deserves as the true home of Civ in the net. Also, I really hope the Civ mods start to appear in magazine articles more.

 

[embryodead]

Well it could be nice if online gaming sites could review civ3 mods. It doesn't cost them much I think.. They do review mods for 3d games, though they're way more popular.

 

[Ozymandias]

Back to the original question --

I mod mostly for myself -- yet I am trying to tweak the Civ engine to "feel" as historical as possible while still giving a good game. Even though I'm as enchanted by countless UUs etc. as everyone else, these are secondary.

I'm hoping when I'm done I'll have a genuinely fun to play, historiographically correct mod covering 1071-2050 CE (and, yes, there are 8 or 9 good reasons for the 1071 CE start date). If I succeed, then I doubt I'll be able to keep myself from sharing.

Best,

Oz

 

[GIDustin]

Just recently I started a mod list on my site. I plan to extend that with online teasers for each one, and a link to the official website/thread and download link. Even though I am working on a mod of my own (MTG), I have also made another mod (Cultural Diversity, only adds flavor units) and play many others (DyP, Warhammer, MoM, Space Wars to name a few). Default rules seem to lack now that I have played all these mods, and I doubt I will ever go back.

- GIDustin

 

[Drift]

GIDustin, I was meaning to mention your site as the lone and most welcome exception, but it slipped my mind. It's great that you're linked at Civ3.com.

 

[tjedge1]

I have GIDustin linked to my sig! I mod for myself mostly, but I enjoy when others join me in making the mod better and then when others want to play it or do. Mine isn't finished, yet, but I feel that it will most likely be played by civfanatics and those at CDG. The only sites I post on that has to do with Civ3. I'm not interested in fame really, I just want to share my dreams.

EDIT: I'm not too worried about copyright issues as I won't be selling my mod or accepting donations. As a member of the Wizards of the Coast forums, I see plenty of copy work going on and modifications of their work. I also have advertised the mod on thier forums and have not been threatened yet. :Crossing Fingers:

 

[Kal-el]

I like to think we are creating DyP/RaR for the whole Civ3 community, not just those here at CFC. I love this place, but for the amount of time and effort we put into this thing, if I didn't know that we had fan made French, German, Spanish, Italian and Japanese versions, as well as fan sites in some of those languages, I would be less inclined to keep it up.









(look for DyP on the June coverdisc of PC Zone magazine in the UK)