Are you Politically Correct?

[TheMeInTeam]

Cispeople just don't know what it's like to constantly havery your gender be challenged, to have people who don't even know you speak with authority about what you are as if somehow they know.

There are plenty of things people experience that others don't know what it's like. You're not the only one who's gone through a bad time other people don't understand. Parroting this repeatedly doesn't help people understand, either.

Unless the person speaking is my doctor, they should keep their mouth shut and not go on about how I'm "biologically this" because that is the equivalent of throwing out a slur to me and to other transpeople.

A fact is a fact regardless of whether a doctor, a 10 year old, or a random person says it. It isn't a slur any more so than observing that someone is wearing a shirt is a slur. Telling people "they should keep their mouth shut" drips with the hatred and bigotry you decry.

Although I am sure others will tell me how it isn't, but I frankly couldn't care what they think

Quoted + the above isn't the kind of argument made when one doesn't care what others think.

We were talking about self-ID as well, explicitly. Akka said being a man or a woman is not subject to self-ID. You seem to be saying it is, but objective ID (whatever that results to in a specific, non-theoretical example) is also a factor.

I can't speak for Akka. Objective ID may or may not be a factor in self-ID. It usually is, but doesn't have to be.

I still hold that it's useful to separate these conceptually, because the brain is not compelled to automatically align with objective ID. It's useful to distinguish them in the same way that it's useful to distinguish the brain from the rest of the physical body. Technically everything is "physical" (brains exist in reality) but we're operating in different concept spaces when considering one vs the other.

 

[red_elk]

So you gave a singular example of genitalia apparently being different

I don't care about their genitalia. Sexual relationships is not "genitalia".

 

[rah]

How close is you're saying I'm deluding myself to denying my existence?

 

[Zardnaar]

Why are you making an issue concerning transpeople about yourself and Cispeople Zardnaar?

I'm not just not a fan of being insulted over my personal relationship decisions.

A lot of liberal types are very free throwing around insults when people might only agree with them 90%.

IRL you just have to pass the dick head test, I don't care to much what you're into with your life.

In your case though you seem so extreme you can't even acknowledge a different point of view.

Most cis guys I imagine won't date a trans women, they might not publicly admit it but even here in one of the most liberal nation's on the planet not many will.

Not an easy life but you can't really regulate things like that anyway.

 

[Zardnaar]

Think whatever wrong stuff you want, but you're a long way behind international policy, expert opinion and science here.

IOC policy has been in place since 2015 and other sports like cricket, ice hockey and Australian Football are following on similar lines, which is that a period of hormone therapy (12 months I think) brings teams brings transwomen to equivalent ciswoman norms.

I think it's a Pandora's box. Remember east German women's olympic teams.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

A fact is a fact regardless of whether a doctor, a 10 year old, or a random person says it. It isn't a slur any more so than observing that someone is wearing a shirt is a slur. Telling people "they should keep their mouth shut" drips with the hatred and bigotry you decry.

You don't get it do you? I could go up to a black person and call them an ape, now humans are apes, but that would get me beat up and accused of being a racist.

Why don't you give this experiment a go; go to the closest black person and call them that and when they react just tell them "it's a fact" see how well that works for you buddy.

You won't though because you and I know what would happen and because transpeople don't tend to react in a physical manner when insulted but I do know that racial minorities (justifiably) do.

 

[Arwon]

I think it's a Pandora's box. Remember east German women's olympic teams.

That's an insulting, demeaning and ignorant comparison.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You don't get it do you? I could go up to a black person and call them an ape, now humans are apes, but that would get me beat up and accused of being a racist.

Why don't you give this experiment a go; go to the closest black person and call them that and when they react just tell them "it's a fact" see how well that works for you buddy.

You won't though because you and I know what would happen and because transpeople don't tend to react in a physical manner when insulted but I do know that racial minorities (justifiably) do.

Why does it have to be a black person, specifically?

 

[Lexicus]

I'm not just not a fan of being insulted over my personal relationship decisions.

You're being "insulted" because you insist on continuing to pontificate on something you obviously know nothing about and manage to keep outdoing yourself on offensive statements because of your ignorance.

Incidentally, this thread is a nice demonstration of why some trans people talk about violence against the cis as a form of blowing off steam...have to swim against a constant tide of belligerent ignorance and cisplaining must be goddamn exhausting...

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Stop moving the goal posts and get that experiment started.

 

[Zardnaar]

You don't get it do you? I could go up to a black person and call them an ape, now humans are apes, but that would get me beat up and accused of being a racist. Why don't you give this experiment a go; go to the closest black person and call them that and when they react just tell them "it's a fact" see how well that works for you buddy.

I wouldn't do that to a trans women IRL, it's rude/cruel etc. Hypothetically I wouldn't date one assuming she let me know and I was single. The kid thing is a deal breaker.

 

[Gorbles]

I can't speak for Akka. Objective ID may or may not be a factor in self-ID. It usually is, but doesn't have to be.

I still hold that it's useful to separate these conceptually, because the brain is not compelled to automatically align with objective ID. It's useful to distinguish them in the same way that it's useful to distinguish the brain from the rest of the physical body. Technically everything is "physical" (brains exist in reality) but we're operating in different concept spaces when considering one vs the other.

My point in this case is you specifically did:

He's saying that their self ID may or may not be consistent with their objective ID, but that the former does not change the latter. Sometimes this matters, other times it does not.

I think that's perhaps the problem here.

I see where you're coming from with the rest of your post, but I think that's a difference point entirely (and, as you mention earlier, is relevant to being trans and the dissonance that can emerge from that state of being).

I don't care about their genitalia. Sexual relationships is not "genitalia".

Well, you didn't give any particulars beyond that, so I'm stuck to assumptions again. I also covered having children, etc, previously. You're going to need to actually stop generalising and speaking in vague happenings.

 

[Zardnaar]

You're being "insulted" because you insist on continuing to pontificate on something you obviously know nothing about and manage to keep outdoing yourself on offensive statements because of your ignorance.

Incidentally, this thread is a nice demonstration of why some trans people talk about violence against the cis as a form of blowing off steam...have to swim against a constant tide of belligerent ignorance and cisplaining must be goddamn exhausting...

So now I'm ignorant because the kid thing is a deal breaker?

Am I wrong in saying that no matter how good the surgery kids are not an option. That's a fact yes?

 

[Synobun]

Cloud acknowledges different viewpoints, they just don't respect "I'll let you have your fun but over here in the Facts & Logic Club we'll continue to think you're just doing a rather daring cosplay." as a compelling argument, especially when that argument is adjoined with "But I'm not transphobic, see, because I'll 'let you' pretend to be what you think you want to be..."

Being 100% comfortable isn't a prerequisite, you just have to be accepting of their place and identity. When every "But really, I'm fine with them!" comes with a list of caveats and conditions (and self-defeating statements) you're not being accepting. At best it just makes you sound like you think you're being peer pressured into not being an ass but that you'll take the opportunity to "set the record straight" when you find yourself faced with a difficult conversation.

Not wanting to date a trans person isn't inherently transphobic (I think even Cloud would agree, I believe they said something similar in an older trans-related thread). But it is when it's coming from someone who keeps saying that a trans person is just playing pretend. Motivation behind your actions and beliefs matter.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So you would divorce a cis woman who ended up infertile then?

 

[Gorbles]

So now I'm ignorant because the kid thing is a deal breaker?

Am I wrong in saying that no matter how good the surgery kids are not an option. That's a fact yes?

I've said this before, but I think to someone else. This also rules out women with hysterectomies (not exactly a first date conservation) or women with which you have a relationship that you both later discover to be incapable of having children for any reason. To single out trans women solely on this assumption is transphobic.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Incidentally, this thread is a nice demonstration of why some trans people talk about violence against the cis as a form of blowing off steam

Nothing in this thread merits violence.

Stop moving the goal posts and get that experiment started.

You didn't answer my question. The only way my question "moves the goal post" is if you are intentionally being racist, which is something I was giving the benefit of the doubt and not immediately concluding.

My point in this case is you specifically did:

In that case, he'd already spoken so I didn't speak for him.

Cloud acknowledges different viewpoints, they just don't respect "I'll let you have your fun but over here in the Facts & Logic Club we'll continue to think you're just doing a rather daring cosplay." as a compelling argument, especially when that argument is adjoined with "But I'm not transphobic, see, because I'll 'let you' pretend to be what you think you want to be..."

Who made this case?

So you would divorce a cis woman who ended up infertile then?

This actually does happen, and if having children is something a person really wanted it's not so easy to condemn it. Especially compared to typical reasons for divorce.

 

[Akka]

Cloud acknowledges different viewpoints, they just don't respect "I'll let you have your fun but over here in the Facts & Logic Club we'll continue to think you're just doing a rather daring cosplay." as a compelling argument

I'd say the fact that one side seems to be unable to actually address a point without misrepresenting it, is pretty revealing in itself.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm not going to answer your questions until you buckle and commit that experiment, put your deeds into action friend.

Go do what I asked and I will engage with you.

 

[Zardnaar]

So you would divorce a cis woman who ended up infertile then?

Nope because it's an established relationship. Pet's, assets, 19 years together etc. I might also be the infertile one.

If she told me that on the first date or whatever it's a deal breaker.

I've always gone with the it's her choice to have kids. If my wife says she wants them I'm fine with it, if she doesn't I'm fine with it.

19 years she was 18 when we started I was 22.