Are you Politically Correct?

[red_elk]

....such as?

Everything related to sexual relationships.

"I don't have to own the logical implications of my statements"

I don't have to own conclusions incorrectly drawn from my statements.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't want to date trans women, does that make me transphobic? I'm not pansexual.
To me they just men trying to look like women to a varying degrees of success. I'm fine with them identifying as women but maybe not expecting to be treated as women.

The only issues I really have us dating them and having them compete in female sports. Apart from that I don't care to much.

Generally I look at things in terms of how does this directly effect me.

 

[Lexicus]

To me they just men trying to look like women to a varying degrees of success.

This is literally just transphobia and misgendering.

Generally I look at things in terms of how does this directly effect me.

Yes, we know, it's very noble

 

[Gorbles]

No you're missing the point again. The argument isn't about the beliefs themselves, it's about the reaction to someone else not sharing your belief, regardless of what that belief is. It's the latter part of that that is the point under examination, which is precisely why it is immaterial what the specific belief chosen for the example is. So your ham-pizza and ghosts beliefs actually are functionally interchangeable.

Oh I see. Well that makes it even easier.

You're removing the context which makes said reaction understandable. You're focusing on the reaction itself; on people being (presumably) mad at you, and going "why, you don't see me complaining that people don't believe I'm the Pope". People are going to react poorly if you disagree with a key part of who they are, which is what gender identity is. Calling yourself the Pope is, well, not. It matters what the belief is, because this is how we contextualise the reaction that you're arguing about.

You're basically asking "why are people upset" because apparently to you, disagreeing with somebody's identity is the same as disagreeing with the notion that you're the Pope. And then you object when people apply labels to you based on this equivalence.

I disagree. I would like to keep distinction between men/women and transmen/transwomen. In many situations in daily life, people are interested in biological sex of the person they are interacting with, rather than their social gender.

It's pretty obvious what you would like. Refusing to treat trans people as people of their chosen gender is transphobic, what you do with that label is up to you. I have no desire to entertainment your random, unproven assertion of "people" and what they are interested in, because you've made it clear that your definition of chromosomal sex (which I've already discussed in greater depth than your apparent understanding) is what you're using to decide the identity of trans folk. Certainly, I don't expect you to change!

 

[Zardnaar]

This is literally just transphobia and misgendering.



Yes, we know, it's very noble

Define misgendering?

Dude cuts off penis and takes artificial hormones, logically that's not a women.

Phobia implied you fear something, I'm just not interested in dating one and would consider it dishonest if I wasn't told 1st date at the latest.

I don't particularly want kids but I want that option or if it happens it happens. That's not an option with because trans women because they a dude genetically.

That's just common sense. People are inventing words to justify their life decisions.

I have no problem if that's what you want/identify with only if I'm getting insulted for honestly if blunty saying I'm only sexually interested in biological women.

I'm not pansexual, should someone who is gay be expected to date members of the opposite gender to protect their feelings?

 

[Lemon Merchant]

@Lemon Merchant

Respectfully, you're conflating sex and gender as well. Additionally, chromosomal arguments are flawed as XX / XY is a simplistic understanding of that particular subject (that most of us are taught in school, and therefore appropriate for that level but not beyond that).

As I said to Arwon, the chromosomal arguments were an example to get my point across. I don't need a lecture in human biology, thank you.

<snip> And even if somebody wanted to argue that that's a minor thing to call "transphobic", insisting that a trans woman is a biological man is definitely transphobic, and runs completely at cross-purposes of this little debate about calling trans men men, and trans women women. If you're still calling them a biological "other", then you're not even attempting to respect who they are.

A trans woman is indeed a biological man, medically speaking, which is the point I am trying to make here. Call me transphobic if you like but I am simply stating a biological fact. It's got nothing to do with respecting who they are, that is on a whole other level. Just because you identify as something else does not mean that suddenly your whole physiology changes on the cellular level and you suddenly morph into the opposite sex. If you are a trans person, your doctor needs to know when you go and see him/her. Certain medications cannot be taken if you are on hormone therapy, and so on. Your biological makeup has a lot to do with what you are, and yes, it has nothing to do with your assumed gender. You are making it sound like if I wanted to identify as a man, the good fairy will come down and suddenly change my whole physiology. It doesn't work that way. What you are in your head is not what you are in your body. To think otherwise is a logical fallacy.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Gotta say, from the perspective of an actual transperson alot of the stuff I'm seeing in thread is functionally the same as what transphobes spout.

Very depressing.

 

[red_elk]

Refusing to treat trans people as people of their chosen gender is transphobic

I don't refuse to treat them as people of their chosen gender. What I refuse is the idea that biological sex can be chosen. By any people, not just trans.

what you do with that label is up to you.

I have a garbage bin nearby.

 

[Gorbles]

@red_elk

We were talking about calling trans women women, and trans men men. We were talking about words, and their meaning. Changing the subject to someone "choosing their biological sex" is moving the goalposts!

As I said to Arwon, the chromosomal arguments were an example to get my point across. I don't need a lecture in human biology, thank you.

A trans woman is indeed a biological man, medically speaking, which is the point I am trying to make here. Call me transphobic if you like but I am simply stating a biological fact. It's got nothing to do with respecting who they are, that is on a whole other level. Just because you identify as something else does not mean that suddenly your whole physiology changes on the cellular level and you suddenly morph into the opposite sex. If you are a trans person, your doctor needs to know when you go and see him/her. Certain medications cannot be taken if you are on hormone therapy, and so on. Your biological makeup has a lot to do with what you are, and yes, it has nothing to do with your assumed gender. You are making it sound like if I wanted to identify as a man, the good fairy will come down and suddenly change my whole physiology. It doesn't work that way. What you are in your head is not what you are in your body. To think otherwise is a logical fallacy.

My intent wasn't a lecture. I go on what I read at the time, and I try not to get involved in other peoples' debates if I don't have to.

A trans woman might be biologically male by some arguments that you haven't defined. Perhaps. It's more accurate to say all humans exhibit male and female characteristics as per a Twitter thread I linked earlier. Regardless, that's irrelevant to them being a woman. "woman" is the descriptor for gender, not sex.

So, if you're not referring to chromosomes, then what are you referring to? Body parts? Organs? These aren't a reliable way to determine someone's gender, and in a lot of cases can be affected by illness, or even created by transitioning (breasts are an easy example there). You haven't said explicitly, so I'm left guessing.

"man" and "woman" are not the same as "male" and "female". One is a set of mainly-cultural suppositions we have about peoples' appearances and also roles in society, the other is a biological descriptor subject to professional discretion (knowledge about which is changing over time, as we learn more about the human race and indeed other species). You say I can call you transphobic (and it definitely seems like you're espousing commonly held transphobic-opinions), but then say "but" (like this is a rebuttal somehow) "you are simply stating a biological fact". What biological fact conflates gender identity with human physiology?

 

[Lexicus]

A trans woman is indeed a biological man, medically speaking, which is the point I am trying to make here. Call me transphobic if you like but I am simply stating a biological fact. It's got nothing to do with respecting who they are, that is on a whole other level. Just because you identify as something else does not mean that suddenly your whole physiology changes on the cellular level and you suddenly morph into the opposite sex. If you are a trans person, your doctor needs to know when you go and see him/her. Certain medications cannot be taken if you are on hormone therapy, and so on. Your biological makeup has a lot to do with what you are, and yes, it has nothing to do with your assumed gender. You are making it sound like if I wanted to identify as a man, the good fairy will come down and suddenly change my whole physiology. It doesn't work that way. What you are in your head is not what you are in your body. To think otherwise is a logical fallacy.

Medical issues seem like they are properly kept between trans people and their doctors, not brought up as ammunition by cis people for some internet debate stance that trans people will certainly perceive as invalidating.

Define misgendering?

Saying that a trans woman is a man is misgendering. Saying that a trans man is a woman is misgendering. I don't know what is so damn difficult about this.

I have no problem if that's what you want/identify with only if I'm getting insulted for honestly if blunty saying I'm only sexually interested in biological women.

Being told you're being insulting is not actually insulting you.

 

[rah]

One question Cloud. Do you really care if they're 100% comfortable with you as long as they're granting you equal rights and status. Just curious on your perspective.

 

[Gorbles]

This scenario where folks are granting Cloud equal rights and status is theoretical, right? Because this thread has turned into a debate about that status, which a lot of people don't seem willing to commit to in simple, straightforward terms.

EDIT

Removed a line that's invariably going to get me accused of "virtue-signalling" (not saying by you @rah). Happy to state for the record if people really need an example.

 

[Zardnaar]

Medical issues seem like they are properly kept between trans people and their doctors, not brought up as ammunition by cis people for some internet debate stance that trans people will certainly perceive as invalidating.



Saying that a trans woman is a man is misgendering. Saying that a trans man is a woman is misgendering. I don't know what is so damn difficult about this.



Being told you're being insulting is not actually insulting you.

I got called a transphobe because I said I wouldn't date a teams women.

I'll refer to her however she wants, but biologically she's a dude.

It's mostly academic, only met one friend of a friend. Didn't look to bad but saw her on the street later with facial hair. IDK if it was a hormone thing or not shaving but I don't find that attractive and at a personal relationship level no option of having kids.

I don't hate them, fear them etc just not interested in dating one.

Similar thing with gay men, don't care they're gay but I don't swing that way.

 

[red_elk]

We were talking about calling trans women women, and trans men men. We were talking about words, and their meaning.

We exchanged opinions and seemed to agree to disagree on that.
Trans-women are trans-women and there are important differences between them and just "women". They of course should have equal rights with all other genders, addressed with their preferred pronouns, et cetera.

Changing the subject to someone "choosing their biological sex" is moving the goalposts!

If I understood you correctly, you claimed that people can change their biological sex and the opposite opinion is transphobic.

 

[Gorbles]

@red_elk

Biological sex is the subject of a lot of debate that at least from the discussions in this thread people don't seem to know enough about to actually debate. I'm not an expert, which is why I defer to people with expert knowledge, and why I have provided links on the subject. I have been talking about someone's chosen pronouns and gender, pretty much throughout.

And no, there are no important differences between trans women and women. Literally none, without being transphobic, or invalidating issues other women face in order to make an exception for trans women (see: giving birth. Cis women can be infertile, or require hysterectomies, etc, et al).

 

[Lexicus]

I'll refer to her however she wants, but biologically she's a dude.

Do you often contradict yourself in a single sentence?

It's mostly academic,

So WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS

I don't hate them, fear them etc just not interested in dating one.

You are obviously have some kind of problem, else why would you insist on continuing to misgender them even as you claim "it's mostly academic"??

 

[Zardnaar]

This scenario where folks are granting Cloud equal rights and status is theoretical, right? Because this thread has turned into a debate about that status, which a lot of people don't seem willing to commit to in simple, straightforward terms.

EDIT

Removed a line that's invariably going to get me accused of "virtue-signalling" (not saying by you @rah). Happy to state for the record if people really need an example.

There's a lot of logistical problems here it's not so much about the individual. The following things I have not yet seen a satisfactory answer to.

1. We have universal health system here resource s are scarce. Should it cover gender reassignment surgery.

2. Should pre op trans men be allowed to use women's bathrooms. Women don't like that idea much.

3. Logistics of building new public bathrooms. It's not really feasible and it effects 0.02% of the population here.

4. Trans women pre surgery competing in female sports.

5. Post op trans women competing in female sports.

They've had trans weight lifters and cyclists here winning events and the females are not happy.

It's in these situations I draw the line. I don't think it's fair a man can declear they're female take hormones and expect to be allowed to compete in female sports.

Was it Serena Williams world's number 1 women couldn't defeat a man ranked around 200 in an intergender match.

 

[Akka]

A trans man post op is just a man who has mutilated themselves and may or may not be taking hormones.

"mutilation" implies inflicting damage and maiming, that's not what a surgery is about. Reassignation is hardly mutilation, though yeah it's a body modification.

Gotta say, from the perspective of an actual transperson alot of the stuff I'm seeing in thread is functionally the same as what transphobes spout.

Very depressing.

Well, you see, that's exactly one aspect of the problem I pointed many pages ago with the "you either agree with me or you're a jerk" : when you're holding this kind of reasoning, it means you deliberately misrepresent every "I disagree with you" as "I hate you", and obviously it just make you perceive a lot more hate than there actually is. On top of being a fallacy, of course.

This is literally just transphobia and misgendering.

See above.

Saying that a trans woman is a man is misgendering. Saying that a trans man is a woman is misgendering. I don't know what is so damn difficult about this.

Well, that's just simply and factually wrong :

man
/man/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. 1.
   an adult human male.

woman
/ˈwʊmən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: woman; plural noun: women

1. an adult human female.

As said before, "male" is based on having the biological organ with the potential to fertilize, and "female" having the biological organ with the potential to be fertilized. As such, "man" and "woman" are defined entirely through biology, and you claim is just false.

Being told you're being insulting is not actually insulting you.

It's funny how you suddenly becomes able to differenciate between concepts once it becomes convenient. Where was that ability when you were conflating "I disagree with your views on gender" with "I consider you don't exist" ?

Call me transphobic if you like but I am simply stating a biological fact.

The problem here is that you're dealing with people who consider that facts are secondary to political opinion.
That's actually the whole point of the thread.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Oh I see. Well that makes it even easier.

You're removing the context which makes said reaction understandable. You're focusing on the reaction itself; on people being (presumably) mad at you, and going "why, you don't see me complaining that people don't believe I'm the Pope". People are going to react poorly if you disagree with a key part of who they are, which is what gender identity is. Calling yourself the Pope is, well, not. It matters what the belief is, because this is how we contextualise the reaction that you're arguing about.

No no no. I perfectly understand that people would react negatively to being misgendered, and this may indeed be very hurtful. I'm not arguing that this is a nice thing to do, or that they are wrong to be upset by it (not that right/wrong is even an appropriate way of characterising involuntary emotional reactions, they simply "are"). So I'm not arguing that they should just suck it up, or that this is a reasonable or nice way to behave, or anything like that.

I'm simply saying that if someone does behave that way, then it's simply incorrect to characterise that as "denying my existence". No-one is denying that anyone else exists, nor even denying that they sincerely believe the thing that you do not also believe about them. "You're literally denying my existence" is just hyperbolic screeching and not accurate.

It could also be argued that if your sense of your own existence hinges so strongly on other people around you reinforcing a particular belief about yourself, then that... well that could indicate that there's some doubt about it even in your own mind couldn't it? After all it would take an incredible number of people insisting I only had one leg, plus at least some form of independent evidence, before I stopped being certain of the fact that I had two.

You're basically asking "why are people upset" because apparently to you, disagreeing with somebody's identity is the same as disagreeing with the notion that you're the Pope.

No you're just misrepresenting again. I am not asking "why are people upset" at all. This is nothing to do with what I am saying. It's obvious why people would be upset, I don't need to ask that. What I am "basically" saying is that disagreeing with someone about some aspect (any aspect) of their identity, does not constitute a denial of their existence. Also, once again since you still didn't seem to get it, I am not equating the identities themselves. I am not saying being a woman is the same as being the Pope. Nor am I saying that believing you're a woman is the same as believing you're the Pope. I'm talking about the reaction to having your identity questioned, whatever that identity is. I shouldn't need to keep spelling that out and I'm not going to again.

 

[Zardnaar]

Do you often contradict yourself in a single sentence?



So WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS



You are obviously have some kind of problem, else why would you insist on continuing to misgender them even as you claim "it's mostly academic"??

There's no contradiction.
Socially treat them like anyone else, be nice polite etc. Don't exclude them socially.

However there are a few things I outlined above, people with penis in female bathrooms and competing women's sports.

Personally I don't care if trans men and women use my bathroom, been there done that. Some people do care though. Try walking into a female bathroom or changing room and see what happens lol.