Aristocracy Experiment: Arturus Thorne

Just looking at all the numbers (I can't open the saves) it appears that Aristocracy has produced the best results overall. Just imagine if the leader was Kandros.

It also seems that Aristocracy is supporting larger cities based on population figures(not a surprise to me at all although to others it may seem strange) and better vault levels (again not a surprise to me).

It also appears that the Aristocracy is in the best position to move forward to any victory type except Religious.
 
I went God King, later City States. Should be able to win the game around turn 260 (tower mastery)
Spoiler :

Declared war on Cardith from the beginning and grabbed his worker. Trained a warrior at the skelli spawnpoint in the north and then intercepted all settlers from Cardith. Around turn 80 I took his Capital which was his only city :lol:. Got around 7 workers from him. Beelined bronze working instead of education which slowed down teching, but I thought Luchuirp would be more of a challenge. Adopted God king turn 108 and changed to city states around turn 140. I had conquered the whole continent (apart from some stupid barb cities) around turn 155. Then I focused on building infrastructure.

Score 1965
# cities: 13
Treasure: 1819
GNP:505 (70%, +4gold, +386research)
Mfg Goods:111
Crop Yield:325
Soldiers 184000
Land Area 253000
Population 1040000

Techs:
Bronze working
Way of the earthmother
Message from the Deep
Arcane Lore
Sorcery
Knowledge of the ether
Alteration

Used a GreatScientist to partbulb Arcane Lore

 

Attachments

Just looking at all the numbers (I can't open the saves) it appears that Aristocracy has produced the best results overall. Just imagine if the leader was Kandros.

It also seems that Aristocracy is supporting larger cities based on population figures(not a surprise to me at all although to others it may seem strange) and better vault levels (again not a surprise to me).

It also appears that the Aristocracy is in the best position to move forward to any victory type except Religious.

I have to disagree, I don't think that's close to the full picture, though I understand due to the fact that you haven't opened the saves. It's true Turin had a couple of very good runs and has discussed a lot of the things going into them, including early game war which helped greatly - so far (well, before Sephi) only one other game has been played with those same advantages. And even so, the best tech in a save I'd seen yet was Evernoob's GK game (I think he intended to transition into city states) which was also pretty peaceful. Also, even compared to GK games where the Aristocracy games had greater tech, they still lagged in production, I again don't know if this was player choice to maximize commerce or just what happened. (I know that in my second game I was emphasizing production, again, it's not just that. But having 3 cities produce nearly as much as 11 up to the same point is also a rather curious statistic, so I'm still guessing Turin really was straight maxxing commerce or something).

Also, while I agree Kandros is better suited to Aristocracy, I also think the difference this map made was even greater - it still would be fair to "imagine" if our neighbors weren't the two weakest AIs in the whole game, essentially setting us (all the players) up for very easy dominance once again - it's not a criticism of player skill, but the whole viability of the "warrior rush" strategy that has allowed Aristocracy games to keep up doesn't seem proven by this game either.

With all this said though, I'm a bit disappointed that we don't have a better metric of things in this game. Score/closeness to victory etc... really don't cut it, as this game was easy enough to achieve probably any victory with any reasonable start, and we've seen some vastly divergent games. Not that it's not interesting to see how different people have tackled the same game, that's one of the great things on the forums here, but I'm just not seeing the dominance of Aristocracy. Again, it's not like it's disastrous as good players can make a lot of things work, but Evernoob put it well in the OP that it's just not an "all the time" thing, and furthermore I still think that even if you do transition to Aristo later, this game is really well suited to early GK.

Lastly, @Sephi - a turn 260 Tower victory is pretty impressive indeed, especially just given the tech and the fact that our dwarven civ doesn't have any great inclination to magic. Amazing job there, also sounds like you also had a much better war effort against the deceitful Luchuirp than I did ;)
 
I'm 100% sure no save has near the tech of Turin's second Aristocracy game. I obviously can't crunch the numbers, but looking at Evernoob's full list of techs and Turin's list of top techs here is what I observe:

The techs that Evernoob has that Turin for sure doesn't have are:
Taxation (2496)
Divination (998)

The techs that Turin has that Evernoob for sure doesn't have are:
Astronomy (4680)
Optics (don't know)
Sailing (don't know)
Sanitation (998)
Drama (936)
Trade (702)
Horseback Riding (don't know)
Philosophy (468)

It is possible that Turin skipped Masonry and Construction or Bronze Working as only one is needed for Sanitation. But I doubt it strongly and I'm not going to factor that super remote possibility in. Just with the tech costs I know because of posts here, I can see that Aristocracy has more than 4290 beakers worth of tech than God King. And it is more than that because I don't know the cost of several of the techs I know he has over Evernoob's save. And IIRC Optics isn't that cheap. This is probably a disparity of like 6000 beakers or more when all is said and done. It is also a difference of more than 2000 gold as well at the moment.

Now about production. I have no idea how the overall production compares among all the games because very few people gave full stats. But I don't look at Turin's production stats and see him as production starved by any stretch of the imagination. I can tell you that when I look at MFG in demographics that people posted for turn 200 I see the following:
Earthling attempt 2 : 245
Turin attempt 2: 172
Sephi: 111
Evernoob: 100
Earthling attempt 1: 94
Jet: 84
Perhaps he was outproduced in the past but with the exception of Earthling 2, he is about to catch up very quickly in total production. I also look at his list of items produced and while it isn't quite as impressive as Earthling 2 it seems imminently comparable to others.

The non Aristo save that I am guessing has the best overall technology is Sephi's God King - City States save that actually has almost caught up in GNP to Turin's Aristo. Alteration - Sorcery - Arcane Lore is a pretty big chunk of tech (and Message from the Deep). I strongly suspect that Turin's Aristo save still has a healthy overall tech lead on him though.
 
You are correct, Turins save has the most techs. And I am fairly sure, if one wanted to max teching in this game Aristo would produce the best results.

On the other hand I think God King is much more practical on this map. Its results might not be that great, but they are more reliable unless you are an Aristo expert.
 
Do you want to share your AI improvments with us when your'e happy with them? I just had a very hard-fought win on Emperor due to 4 AIs researching Education early and actually being credible opponents. I was forced to go full on Ashen Veil and Ring of Flames/Rust my way to conquest.

If the AIs can have an economy they are able to play the game. I'd forgotten that.
 
I increased the weights of Education, Carthography and Code of Laws in my version (added military and gold flavours to Education in particular). I don't understand why Education weights in the XML do not include the gold flavour but score highly on culture instead.
 
Alright, well, time to invalidate all those complaints you're having about God-King. As should have been obvious, the huge benefit from early war made up the difference more than anything else in Turin's game. So, I replayed another game with the early war against Cardith, this time avoiding conflict with the Luchuirp, to achieve a pretty equal tech position and perhaps some better stats in other aspects:

View attachment Arturus3GK200.CivBeyondSwordSave
Spoiler :

Had no beneficial luck from events/lairs or anything except mining from a hut. All GP I grew myself or got from tech (Drama Artist). Likewise with Golden Ages - no constellations this time around. Expanded peacefully after Cardith was dead and went for a more economic techpath, including philosophy for Bone Palace (just like Turin). Statistics:

%Kilmorph - 59 (everyone still alive)
Score-1761
Gold (Vault) -1000
GNP -386
Mfg-177
Food-280
Soldiers-229000
Land-172000
Population-12964000

Notable Tech
Arete
Drama
Trade
Optics
Military Strategy
Mathematics
Priesthood
Knowledge of the Ether
(included even though they're cheaper because I'm not sure others have gotten/listed them)
Archery
Hunting
Warfare

Production
Warrior-33
Thane of Kilmorph-15
Worker-10
Settler-4
Axeman-2
Chariot-2
Galley-2
Caravel-1
Great Sage-2
Great Bard -1
Great Engineer-1
Great Artist-1

Notable Buildings
Dereptus
Tablets of Bambur
Bone Palace
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
Mines of Gal-Dur
National Epic
Heroic Epic
Form of the Titan

Concluding remarks - war with Garrim could still have been easy and profitable, especially after the tech lead had built up enough. Likewise my last couple of great sages built academies rather than bulbing, which could have easily gotten me to sorcery if I wanted I think. I also stayed in GK just because, probably could have saved some more switching to city states anytime past turn 150. So overall this save is still a little behind Turin's in tech in that he has Astronomy and a higher vault, but otherwise is in just as good or better of a position. And it's still my opinion that the huge, major factor in both these games is the benefit from early conquest of Cardith (Turin goes after Garrim too, adding to land + pop I guess). An extra golden age/GP from events of course would help too (and I have another question - did you use your GA from Drama to help bulbing Astro Turin? Or can a Great Prophet also do so - I don't recall mention of what you did with them, and bulbing certainly helps tech along.) And the easiness of this map as a whole I also feel doesn't make it the best testing ground, but at least now you have a save to look at where GK has a better emphasis on tech.


Also-what's with that last save Turin? Just trying to see how the AI perform?
 
Also-what's with that last save Turin? Just trying to see how the AI perform?

Yeah I wrote some scripts for early teching and religionfounding to improve the AI's performance. I also removed some of the more insane tweaks the FFh team has made, like limiting the amount of buildable workers before they get a religion to 2. Yes that's two workers for the entire empire for agnostic civs.

As you can see the AI performs a lot better to the point that their tech level is comparable to some of the human saves posted here.

Regarding my GPs:
I used the GA from Drama for a golden age, build the tablets and settled one of the great prophets. The third is currently waiting for another GP to trigger one more GA.
 
Computer is up and running. I finally got a chance to check out your saves (I'm too late to the party to play I think).

Including the investments in partially finished technology, Earthling 3 is 4379 beakers behind Aristocracy. It also has 3016 less gold than Aristocracy.

Earthling 3 has a 3817 hammer (including unfinished production, factoring out trait/bonus production) edge over Aristocracy.

Current position is quite close on production. Earthling 3 enjoys a very slight production advantage. But the commerce/tech rate advantage is still quite solid for Aristocracy which produces 358 beakers vs 246 beakers of Earthling 3 at what is essentially the breakeven point. Aristocracy also has the potential to fill the vaults more quickly (318 vs 163 at 0%).

Did either game involve any tech trades or sales of techs?
 
So you think a 4500 beaker tech and some gold difference is trivial?

In short, yes, considering the timeframe in the game we're looking at and that he had an extra golden age (through the event/constellation system). Thanks for accounting for the GP uses though. Doesn't detract from player skill at all but it doesn't seem like a significant difference to me. It's all relative, but trivial in comparison to say, the pushover AIs making expansion very easy in this game.

Did either game involve any tech trades or sales of techs?

Yes, at least in my game, it may be true of Turin's as well but I'm not trying to speak for him. Note that both games certainly involved foreign trade, including Astro trade in Turin's game. So if you're really worried about "luck" factors this game had way, way more than previous ones, sorry to say - even the early huts/graveyards/lair gave people different results. Also keep in mind that while I specifically went after the Kurios early on to match what Turin did to them, I didn't go after the Luchuirp, which probably could have added to turn 200 stats.
 
I'll wait to see what Turin says about his save but it would be interesting to at least take into account free techs/trades/sales in the final analysis as just a couple of tech trades can be worth several thousand beakers/gold in the wash and makes it much harder to compare what has been done. We'll see. It is interesting to note that you are right about Turin's focus on commerce (lots of commerce boosting type of infrastructure (courthouses, elder councils, markets, libraries) in lieu of what amounts to production boosting infrastructure (lighthouse, granary, smokehouse, aqueduct, herbalist). The high levels of unhealth is definitely costing some per turn production for Aristocracy. It was surprising to me at least that the save with Astronomy was dealing with more of an unhealth problem than the one without.

It is hard to account for the extra free Golden Age and its value is very variable depending on when it occurred (not worth a hill of beans turn 1, more valuable as time goes on, more value if it allowed a useful anarchyless civic swap). This is one complaint I have about FFH (no turn indicators in the event log which makes it very hard to track back across the game and really understand what was happening).
 
I also traded some techs and sold some for petty cash. I think I traded for Archery/ HBR and KoTE. In total I'd say I gained less than 1,5k beakers/gold from tech trading.

As for my production disadvantage: It's partly due to Cardith not founding the Corn/copper city, but rather the corn/pigs city, which is obviously not such a production powerhouse. I also was very sloppy with micromanagement, for example I did not notice until very late that several of my farms were transformed to hill terrain in my capital, so I was working 3f/2C tiles instead of 1F/4h tiles for a long time.

I may give the game a third run, I'm curious what happens if you go for a scholarship beeline instead of astronomy.
 
Cardith didn't found with copper in the BFC in my game either. I used the corn/pig mostly for GPP. Though I would like to point out, since it's true, that both of our last couple of games probably saw the maximum benefit possible out of Cardith -3 whole cities apiece (compared to anyone who didn't take him out early on). Poor, pathetic, Cardith....
 
Do you want to share your AI improvments with us when your'e happy with them?

I'm now quite happy with them and have posted them in the Modmod forum.
When I ran it with autoplay again, the Decius immortal AI managed to get a score of 1960 on turn 200. Garrim Gyr managed a respectable 1500 as well.
 
I never have really used aristocracy much. City states is just too overwhelmingly good when you get it. I love the research. I tend to run a cottage on everything except for hills and food resources economy, with the occasional farm to spread irrigation or boost population. Before city states show up, I tend to use godking if I have it..
 
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