Armageddon?

[dagorkan]

Around what turn should it appear?

I've played five games of FFH so far, won 2 of them and not once have seen any the Armageddon events. In my latest I'm at turn 480 on a small/normal speed map (only a dozen techs left for me), and the Armageddon counter has never got above 21. And nobody has even made any effort to slow it down. Made me consider building the Temple of whatever that gives your units Marks of the Beast (+1/-1 AC for each unit killed that originated in the city), even though I'm Good so it would make no sense...

In my last game I won (FF, Altar victory, Large/Normal) around turn 550 without the counter rising above 40... sure I destroyed the the Sheaim and Infernals but most of the world was evil and me and my ally (only two good civs) were only second-rank powers behind Perpentach who owned a continent covering a third of the map.

In the one before (FFH, 033, another Altar victory, Large/Epic), AC got as high as 60 at turn 700 but no major Armageddon events I've been reading about (four Horsemen thing)

In all my scenarios so far I've played Good or Neutral and given the evil civs have a 2-1 numerical advantage (twice as many evil as good civs, and with about as many neutral as evil civs)

What kind of settings and civ set up (civilizations you picked) has a high probability of leading to Armageddon? Or is it that I'm playing too well, that if I win as Good/Neutral, then Armageddon never had a chance and that if I see Armageddon I'd be doomed (and thus have stopped playing a couple hundred turns earlier)? Do I need to play Evil to see the cool stuff?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed that this is an issue. I'll copy and paste this once again, bear with me :

"my gripes with Armageddon and Hell Terrain:

ok, the way hell terrain spreads right now ( first AV, then evil, then neutral, good is immune ) makes sense but I think it could get a tweak from a gameplay perspective... what I don't like here is that good civs are supposed to be the guys that want to get out there and fight against evil, but since they are immune from hell terrain they can just merrily sit there and watch evil civs get overwhelmed with hellish lands. so evil civs get punished for being evil while good civs get rewarded for being good basically. the only guys that get something out of raising the AC are the sheaim, and even for them the benefit is not as huge as you would like...

so I like the way that hell terrain spawns to evil territory first , but I think that preventing the advance of hell should not be a reward just for being good, but for being order ( and maybe empyrean ) . AV civs should get bonuses from hell terrain imho. that way good civs would have a good reason to go order and cleanse the world of evil, and evil civs would have a good reason to "sell their soul to the devil" and go AV. I think this would boost the feeling of "as the end of the world gets closer, you are encouraged to take sides, be it good or evil" and give more conflict and epic battles in the endgame.

btw, mercurians getting angels from good units and infernal getting manes from evil units are another thing that makes a lot of sense but isn't really good gameplay-wise imho... it works great with the AI as they will try to get allies to get involved in wars, and those allies will have units dying and providing them with angels/manes. but in the hands of a human player, it means that mercurians will get a lot of angels by killing GOOD civs while infernals get lots of manes by killing EVIL civs. I guess these two should be switched around. think Basium "redempting" evil units and giving them a chance to purge themselves of sin by aiding in the war against hell, and Hyborem corrupting good units and using them as infernal beings to help into his wicked plan "

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

Since .34 released the Armageddon events have been spread out so they all happen at designated times, instead of doing what they used to- all coming up at once and making things frustrating for the player experiencing this.

Check the .34 change log if you want to know more about when the armageddon events will occur now.

 

[dagorkan]

Yes I read that but I think my problem is the AC not increasing. I got one message at AC 10 ("whispers, doom approaches blahblah") and nothing else since, the meter went up to 20 then down to 19 and hovered between that and 21 for one hundred turns. Sure the Sheiam were almost wiped out (I went into the world editor and set them up on a new continent full of resources) but there are still four evil civs out of ten. Seems like they're not doing their job.

@gekko Thanks for that overview, makes sense... did think it was odd that in the two last games Basium declared war on me when I'm the main Good power. Also didn't realize evil civs actually suffered from the terrain changes

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

I think the whispering thing means that Hyborem has entered the game.

Also, not all of the Evil civs are looking forward to the apocalypse...

And a final note- Basium is pretty simple in nature. If you aren't on his side in his 'task' of killing demons, than you are against him.

 

[dagorkan]

I think the whispering thing means that Hyborem has entered the game.

Also, not all of the Evil civs are looking forward to the apocalypse...

And a final note- Basium is pretty simple in nature. If you aren't on his side in his 'task' of killing demons, than you are against him.

There are no demons in the game, I checked in world editor Infernals haven't entered, and i never noticed a message saying they'd been destroyed... and it's almost turn 500 - another symptom of the evil guys not doing their jobs

 

[Atnanor]

I think the whispering thing means that Hyborem has entered the game.

Nah, always happens at 10, I would know I play with last days on, so it just zips the hell up there.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

Nah, always happens at 10, I would know I play with last days on, so it just zips the hell up there.

Well that clears things up for me.

 

[Bitwise]

It mostly goes up from AV being spread so depending on map settings and your opponents it may not be a factor in some games For example, in my last game it never got above 20 but the only evil civ was Perpentach and he capitulated to the Garrym Gyr shortly after founding AV and then he was FoL like his master. But in other games it may make a difference, my game before that as the Illians it was getting cranked up by a very successful Hyborem and his vassals Faeryl and Decius (Bannor). The untimely arrival of Buboes forced me to adjust my attack plans (AA had to retreat since the horsemen are magic immune). That was a pretty cool game actually, since the good guys had the Lanun, Luchuirp and Mercurians as the Order and they were fighting this big war with the AV crowd when I showed up after bumping off Charadon and Cassiel and started walloping everyone.

 

[Sarisin]

It's odd that you didn't get Blight when the counter hit 30 in your second game. I have had Blight in all three of my .34 games (there was a problem with it hitting the human player twice as hard before a patch was issued).

I've also had the Horsemen and Avatar appear in one game following by the counter hitting 100 and losing most of my units.

Each game is different though and I have to admit I usually play Good or Neutral civs and try to keep the counter down. Despite my efforts, often the counter goes up consistently. One way to get it going is to declare war and start razing cities. Especially if you can raze a few large pop. cities, you will see that counter rise quickly.

 

[darkuss]

ok, the way hell terrain spreads right now ( first AV, then evil, then neutral, good is immune ) makes sense but I think it could get a tweak from a gameplay perspective... what I don't like here is that good civs are supposed to be the guys that want to get out there and fight against evil, but since they are immune from hell terrain they can just merrily sit there and watch evil civs get overwhelmed with hellish lands. so evil civs get punished for being evil while good civs get rewarded for being good basically. the only guys that get something out of raising the AC are the sheaim, and even for them the benefit is not as huge as you would like...
"

Yes I have the same thoughts. The first thing I do when I play evil civilization and Hyborian spawns near me I go and kill them to save my cities not from theier army but theier terrain. While as a good player I totaly ignore them since they are not a threat. This is exactly opposite to what I would normaly expect, that is Evil civilizations going hand in hand with Hyborian to fight goody goody players instead of turning against them just to save theier economy when the good players simply don't care.


And speaking about AC, did anyone consider making Armagedon a way to victory? How about adding a ritual that needs certain tech and certain mana nodes (let's call it Awaiting Oblivion for the sake of disccussion). Now the civilization that completes the ritual (only one ritual can be preformed) wins the game if the AC counter reaches 100%. From now on someone will actually benefit from AC rising and will do everything possible to achieve this. But on the other hand he just became everyones enemy.

 

[Bitwise]

I think the terrain isn't supposed to be a punishment so much as have a polarizing effect. You either need to be good and stand against evil or join Hyborem and run StW. Fence-sitters will be screwed as the counter gets higher.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Yes I have the same thoughts. The first thing I do when I play evil civilization and Hyborian spawns near me I go and kill them to save my cities not from theier army but theier terrain. While as a good player I totaly ignore them since they are not a threat. This is exactly opposite to what I would normaly expect, that is Evil civilizations going hand in hand with Hyborian to fight goody goody players instead of turning against them just to save theier economy when the good players simply don't care.

that's exactly what I meant

And speaking about AC, did anyone consider making Armagedon a way to victory? How about adding a ritual that needs certain tech and certain mana nodes (let's call it Awaiting Oblivion for the sake of disccussion). Now the civilization that completes the ritual (only one ritual can be preformed) wins the game if the AC counter reaches 100%. From now on someone will actually benefit from AC rising and will do everything possible to achieve this. But on the other hand he just became everyones enemy.

I do remember someone mentioning something like this. I think it's a great idea and it's also fair since good and neutral civilizations have the Altar of the Luonnatar victory condition, it just makes sense that evil civs have an Armageddon victory condition

 

[Fafnir13]

And speaking about AC, did anyone consider making Armagedon a way to victory? How about adding a ritual that needs certain tech and certain mana nodes (let's call it Awaiting Oblivion for the sake of disccussion). Now the civilization that completes the ritual (only one ritual can be preformed) wins the game if the AC counter reaches 100%. From now on someone will actually benefit from AC rising and will do everything possible to achieve this. But on the other hand he just became everyones enemy.

I'd put the ritual as something to do after armagedon has hit. Something like "The Final Tear" or something. Premise is that the veil between creation has been weakened to the point that it is on the brink of total collapse. All it requires is one final push...

 

[Zobo]

I would love to be able to gain a victory with sheaim that is basically end of the world.

However, if it is a victory condition, shouldn't each nation not going for it to wish keep armageddon from not happening?

I wouldn't like that - a single nation unless very dominating has difficulty causing armageddon.

Also, what mechanism would that be that does not reselmble either altar or tower victory?

 

[darkuss]

I wouldn't like that - a single nation unless very dominating has difficulty causing armageddon.

Well nobody says it has to be easy

Also, what mechanism would that be that does not reselmble either altar or tower victory?

The Armagedon itself is a unique mechanism, AC grows according to events in the game and as you said it's hard to achieve it alone, while Altar demends lots of great people and Tower of Mastery needs 4 mana nodes.

Adding a ritual as a prequisite means that you can choose the moment when you "declare" that you aim for this type of victory. You can wait until the AC rises high and then preform it, but then you risk someone will do it first, or do it fast (so that no one can't beat you) but then struggle alone as everyone will try to keep the AC as low as possible.

Though the idea has 1 major drawback. It needs a mechanism that will keep players not interested in this kind of victory from blocking other players by doing the ritual alone. Maybe the civilization performing it could not achieve any other kind of victory in this game?

 

[onedreamer]

Altar demends lots of great people

7 GP isn't really a lot... The Altar victory is ridicolously easy for the human player.

 

[Zobo]

Well nobody says it has to be easy


The Armagedon itself is a unique mechanism, AC grows according to events in the game and as you said it's hard to achieve it alone, while Altar demends lots of great people and Tower of Mastery needs 4 mana nodes.

Adding a ritual as a prequisite means that you can choose the moment when you "declare" that you aim for this type of victory. You can wait until the AC rises high and then preform it, but then you risk someone will do it first, or do it fast (so that no one can't beat you) but then struggle alone as everyone will try to keep the AC as low as possible.

Though the idea has 1 major drawback. It needs a mechanism that will keep players not interested in this kind of victory from blocking other players by doing the ritual alone. Maybe the civilization performing it could not achieve any other kind of victory in this game?

What I am concerned about, is losing the "armageddon is coming" - feeling from games where nobody is gunning for that particular victory.

I like playing good people and seeing as how the world goes to hell, and having to do something about it.

If Armageddon is a victory condition (or a major hurdle for one), I don't think we can have AI civs promote it unless they're going for it themselves - and have most games be so much poorer for that.

 

[darkuss]

So let'a add another twist - whoever destroys the civilization going for Armageddon may choose the same path (ritual "passes" to the conquerer). Now you can go for the throat increasing AC hoping that later in game you will take the victory from the hands of the player to complete the ritual

As for AI, no idea how it will work with it but to be honest I'm supprised that it handles so many new things so well. I wonder if it's the work of FFH team or Firaxi's team.

 

[Sarisin]

7 GP isn't really a lot... The Altar victory is ridicolously easy for the human player.

I definitely agree with this - especially if you are playing a civ/leader like the Elohim/Einion Logos.

It can be a little tough building that Final Altar though as a GP doesn't help much there unless it is a Great Engineer.

I would like to see something similar to what happens when a player starts to build the Tower of Mastery in a Tower Victory - have ALL the civs declare war on the player who starts to build the Final Altar. That would make it much tougher for the player to be sure.