Armored Cavalry - the point?

[smusebaer]

One big trouble is the usefullness of the horse and archer tech line.
With hunting, you get resourses, with axeman you can chop down wood.
Horsebackriding and Archery you just get units.
I would put horsebackriding to handle animal, trade between writing and mathematics (and also warchariot in this line).
After handle animal I would place war elephants (str 7 is nice...), then a tech for a Hippodrome (+1happy, +1 gold for horse)and least but not last the armored cavelery with the ride of the king wonder.

Archer teach should be melted into Warfare ant military strategy.

Thats my 5 cent

 

[Blackmantle]

Mobility 1+2 is not just simple units, (i whouldn't agree with some of the players rating it a downright overpowered promotion, but still powerful i think) neither are early HN War elephants (which are not hard to get especially with the possibility to upgrade scouts to horsemen right at the same tech. They might be units, but special ones for sure with the earliest high-powered HNs save the stooges from the pact.)


Don't know how the new unit-traits work out exactely, but the old Svartalfar with sinister forest-moving cavalry (upgraded from scouts) was nice as well (and if i guess right might be gained even earlier now without the need to go straight for hunting first for lodges. Still better to go hunting first as svarts most of the time i reckon... but the Option is not all-bad), as are high-withdrawl ones of defender-leaders and the hippus (the difference between Hippus-Cavalry built by Rohanna and defender-cavalry is often quite overestimated. Tasunke is a different picture of course.) and the centaurs of the Kuoritates (which are topped in fast and solid animal-capturing options only by the clan of embers and its goblins turning wolf-riders even without horseback-riding and which promote to subdue animal after one mere fight with Sheelba after the change to agressive if im not mistaken.).


agriculture ---> husbandry ---> riding ---> trade all offer benefits useful enough to grab them rather early even though a beeline might only be appropriate to some civs.


and horse-line is not bad (just mediocre) unlike archery-line.
But its really bland which is a big disadvantage with all the flashy options left and right. I still learned to rather like the early part recently and worth the occasional early grab.

But one thing to mind about archery: Its not utterly sure that this line stays as weak + it should allready be a tad bit more useful now with changed barbarian behavior and special spawns from lairs.

 

[Annex]

Agree that armored cavalry needs a boost. It never made sense to me to get units which are similar in strength to war chariots but it costs much much more to research. I would agree that moving Ride of the Nine Kings from warhorses would be a good idea.

However in my current game i am Tasunke on Immortal and am locked in a pretty good battle with the Malakim. Ive got high level horse archers and Im researching armored cavalry so I can get four more very powerful units (the pillaging alone will be fun).

 

[sputnik323]

i prefer the orbi modmod way, put chariots back where they belong as an ealry tech weak unit good against axemen, and replace the warchariot tech as the end tech that gives knights. They are basically the same unit anyways... so toss out the uber war chariot

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'd LOVE a Scythed Chariot that deals some collateral damage. always loved those

 

[onedreamer]

1) higher defense
2) 4 more national units
3) certain lower level units can only upgrade to these units and not to war chariots

 

[Demus]

how about reducing the strenght of war chariots with 1, and giving all mounted units +1 str. at armored cavalry? Or allowing certain weapon upgrades at AC (bronze for horsemen and normal chariots, iron for war chariots, mithril for knights, readjuct strenght accordingly)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I really like the idea of having armored cavalry give strenght upgrades to all cavalry units, it makes a lot of sense imho and it should make the tech a lot more interesting.

 

[Grand Seeker]

In the beginning I find having a few horsemen very very nice, simply because they are the fastest units at that time.

 

[Schmoe]

This has been an interesting discussion so far, with a lot of great points. I can see that sometimes AC is a worthwhile pursuit:

1. If you have a UU you want to get to at AC (a few civs)
2. If you have a UU that is different than War Chariots, so the Knights represent something new (a few civs)
3. If you are heavily invested in the Mounted line (generally only a few civs)
4. If you are running Council of Essus

The large majority of the time, though, it's sort of an expensive dead-end that just expands your limit of mounted national units by 4. For example, compare AC to Rage. Both increase your limit of natinal units by 4. But Rage generally grants you Berserkers, which are national units with collateral damage, which you can't get anywhere else. In contrast, AC just grants you more of the same. In addition, Rage is (if I remember correctly) cheaper to research than AC. Not only that, but the techs leading up to Rage provide a number of nice goodies that most civs will want to get anyway, so the opportunity cost of diverting from the mounted line up to Rage is largely ameliorated.

The comparison to the Melee line isn't even close, as melee leads to weapon upgrades for your whole army, weaponsmiths, and immortality.

Most people seem to think that the Archery line is fairly weak, so maybe a comparison to Precision would be better. While both Precision and AC increase your national unit limit by 4, Precision grants the Marksman promotion, which is a new (and powerful) ability for that line. And again, Precision is cheaper than AC.

So for most circumstances, given the choice, people are inclined to avoid AC in favor of greater benefits, which is a shame, as AC is both expensive and the capstone of the Mounted line of research.

I personally feel that AC could be a worthwhile tech with just a small benefit tacked on. Some random ideas could be:

1. Hippodromes provide +1
2. Stables provide +2 xp, or maybe +10% withdrawal, to mounted units
3. Horsemen and Chariots can use mithral weapons
4. Mounted units gain +1 Horse Affinity

Basically, any nice little rider bonus that rewards players for sticking with the mounted line, over and above just increasing the national unit limit. Given the cost and position of AC, I think it's warranted.

 

[orangelex44]

This may be completely overpowered, but what if Knights could get defensive bonuses, or have a higher defensive strength overall - they are Armored Cavalry, after all. They'd be more flexible than War Chariots, and more apt to survive, making them a reasonable alternative to go after.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

4. Mounted units gain +1 Horse Affinity

This is a very interesting idea to me. Having more horse resources could represent more choices for selective breeding and thus the increase in unit strength. The only problem I see is balance. Mana affinities are balanced by the need for different kinds of mana. There is no such need with horses, a horse is a horse where a mana is one many manas. Still, I think this is a good idea that deserves consideration.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

Mounted units gain +1 horse affinity to a maximum of +3 strength ?

 

[sputnik323]

If people want a bonus for mounted line like the melee line and precision at the archer line; how about mounted tacticts bonus that increases withdrawl chances for all your units - (sadir would be a great civ to go for this bonus.) Mounted units get the largest retreat chances - 25% and melee get like 5-10% chance.
- I still think chariots should be tossed as national units, Alexander the great nerfed chariots in real life eons ago by a simple tactic - which vanillia civ mimics by chariots being an early unit.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Schmoe: One thing you overlooked at precision. Marksmen (the unit) need Mithril (the resource as in not oly researched but also hooked up. And at least in my experience its a rather rare one) to build and profit in no way from it (Its really that bad).
Effectively making that one the single most expensive Tech for Tier 4 Units in the game to fully use (its by far more expensive than Archmages and Druids. Go figure...). The comparison isn't even close. AC is by far better (and still only mediocre exept in the cases noted above + possible others we have overlooked).
If it were not for the promotion (which is really powerful but gained far earlier elsewhere and is only really important to rangers and beastmasters for most civs) Precision-tech whould be the single worst one in the game.
(It is borderline unreachable even now, at worst AC can be fastbulbed and Knights profit from Iron / Mithril. Precision not even offers that.)

Archery is really gimped the way it is now... (Because it depends on the surperior melee-line to be researched first and doesn't even get the full benefits ,So separating Archery from Melee doesn't work.)

Thats why AC can only really be compared to Melee and Recon because only those 2 offer regular units which are not highly dependent on prerequisites in other paths in a hefty way (those highly useful and cheap things like Iron-Working and the likes seems to offer enough on its own to not list it explicitly at late tier 4. For early tier 4 it whould be something to take into account though.).

The only exeption to the Archery line is those Arquebusiers from Gunpowder (Where Marksmen badly lose out in most respects. At least for the time needed to get there. Usually at a comparable time 4 Marksmen have to compete with 40 of those Gunwielders which are in the field already. They can't hope to stand a chance. marksmen-promotion given or taken. Also they take a rather high-level unit to promote from.)
The Gunpowder tech is a good example how the archery-line as a whole could and should be to make it work at least in some way...

For Marksmen it seem the minimum whould be the other way around (no hefty requirements in the metal line and full profit from it.) to have it really work out in any serious way. (If you just want the promotion thats another deal and i guess the only one most players researching it really go for...)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

eh, agreed about marksmen units needing mithril being really really weird. I vote for adding the Duskwood resource from Orbi modmod, making it a prereq for marksmen and making it act as weapon upgrades for the archery line

 

[Blackmantle]

@ sputnik323: There are several problems with that though.

First the mounted line is a mediocre one not a strong one. So taking out anything might be a bad idea.

Secondly FFH2 is not Vanilla bts/civ and has no ties to our planets history. So that argument doesn't make much sense in the world of erebus unless someone named Alexander nerfed Chariots in Erebus .
Also Chariots are not War-Chariots. That's about the difference in power from Axemen to Immortals. I guess you get the picture.

Thirdly removing War-Chariots would actually make AC weaker by far (because then there would really be no incentive to go for Warhorses anymore, let alone Armored Cavalry).

Also axing AC and replacing War Chariots with Knights at Warhorses would still make the whole line weaker (if i got right what you meant.).

So if anything! should be changed to the mounted line additional! things should be added with no reduction elsewhere in the line (unless its a direct change to an existing unit to part-balance stronger power of that unit overall in question).
There is no need whatsoever to reduce other things in the line to compensate if AC is beefed up...

War Chariots are decent as they are. If something is not broken. Don't fix it. Please.
If anything AC is "broken" so fix that.

@ [to_xp]Gekko: I doubt that this will make it into the main-mod (and i don't even think it whould be the only possible or good way to do it.).
But i have not lost hope that the archery-line will still get its place in the game somehow and all those units doing a better job at what they do. Right now they are not even the best available choice at what they do (defense in terrain and in cities) quite often.
And if at all only for very short time until other things are better again.



@ topic: I for one think that axing the national limit on Knights might be some form of appropriate strengthening given the cost. That would set them apart (they are still dull compared to other late Tier4s). If that seems to much (which it very well might), take away one point of strength or 2.
Without much doubt that would make AC highly viable.

But some of the other ideas really seem neat (problem with defense whould be that it makes centaurs less unique. Even if i like that one a lot.).
The ideas to buff all mounted things at AC is another one i like much. (No matter if done via Wonder)


Still horse archers as the last non-national Unit (unless knights are turned into regular units) whould need some kind of beef up then. (like beeing able to use copper + perhaps iron weapons.). If that sounds unflavorful then, just rename them to lancers/mounted skirmishers/ or something like that.
Dual Ogres seem alright as they are though.

 

[Demus]

i still think my option is better atm: reduce the strenght of war chariots by 1, and have all mounted units get +1 strenght at AC. So the total strenght of the war chariots would still be the same, but all your normal chariots and horse archers will be buffed.

 

[Annex]

Ok, for some reason I just found out that Knights have 11/9 base strength

That doesnt make any sense, as it isnt any different than War Chariots

 

[Blackmantle]

The only difference is the extra +10% on chance to withdraw but a missing +50% vs. archers. Indeed minor.