Artillery is too powerful

[ThERat]

Moderator Action: No need to respond...

 

[toh6wy]

I doubt Civ4 artillery will turn out to be too powerful, now that they can attack and defend like normal units. Before I remembered that, however, I had the idea that maybe if you attacked with artillery, then the best enemy artillery unit in the stack you attacked (or possibly another enemy stack adjacent to you) would automatically fire back at you before you could do anything more. (I think this kind of thing should happen with nukes, too, although obviously not necessarily from the same square hit).

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

I kinda like the idea that in Civ 4, artillery will be able to damage multiple units. Make sense until you have true precision weapons. However, I agree with most people here that there should be limit on how much damage is done (i.e. no instances of one catapult bombarding a stack 16 swords and damaging them all).

However, I do hope that they will address another type of one sided bombardment: bombers.

In Civ3, bombers seemed way too powerful and fighters largely ineffectual. I got tired of having 4 fighter squadrons stationed in a city, only to have that city get hit by multiple flights bomber with nary a sortie. I hope Civ 4:

1) Makes it easier to defend cities and their radii against bombers with fighters
2) Makes it possible for fighters to escort bombers to their targets (and fight against the defending fighters)
3) Creates multiple outcomes for bombing, including payload delivered/returned to base safely, payloaded delivered/shot down, forced to retreat to base before delivering payload, intercepted and shot down before delivering payload, etc.

 

[warpstorm]

However if they get attacked they lose automatically if not accompanied by any other troops. Im really not so sure about using them as a major piece in a SOD.

Try it, you'll like it. A stack of 20+ arty and enough defensive troops to protect them is a force that the AI in Civ3 can not deal with.

Surely it can defend itself.

This would be historically inaccurate. It was a common thing for cannoneers to run away once the cavalry charged them allowing their cannons to be captured.

 

[Himalia]

True that does make sence with waht you say about the cannoners. I play multiplayer more than the AI and i guess some things that work well against the AI may not always be so good against a human player.

 

[Dark Russell]

...Im really not so sure about using them as a major piece in a SOD. Yes have a few in your cities thats pretty sound...QUOTE]

You have never faced 150 infantry crossing your boarders in 3 stacks. Unless you have twice as many units to attack with or are content with having your territory raped, you need a good heafty stack of arty to defend against them.

I truely think that arty and aircraft will never be coded to be acceptable to all people. Everyones play style and the maps they play on are different, that's what so great about the editors! I have modded the arty to be acceptable to me...and I think anyone who is unhappy with how it turns out in Civ4 should just simply do the same.

The AI in C3C is not to innept with arty as I just faced 15 (maybe more) of them in a city which repulsed my Infantry attack in the IA.

 

[Himalia]

You have never faced 150 infantry crossing your boarders in 3 stacks. Unless you have twice as many units to attack with or are content with having your territory raped, you need a good heafty stack of arty to defend against them.
:

Thats indeed true not even anything close to that and thats the way i would like it to stay. Ive never taken a severe pounding so prehaps i need one so i dont become complacent about things in the came which i realise i do at times. Im certainly gonna have ago with this artillery stuff im happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Illini Rule]

I never use artilary in civ3 and find it useless

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yeeerch, 150 units. That is truly obscene IMO. In just a few posts, you guys have proven beyond a doubt why we need to make a change to things like how arty's damage stacks. If there are other methods for stemming these ridiculously huge stacks, then I will be even more glad.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[microbe]

You have never faced 150 infantry crossing your boarders in 3 stacks. Unless you have twice as many units to attack with or are content with having your territory raped, you need a good heafty stack of arty to defend against them.

The way I deal with such SoDs is to use infantry to block their way. Infantry is hard to kill without artillery support, and the same thing happens both ways. If you use infantry to block AI's infantry, AI will either walk around it or try to attack your infantry with high casualty.

So you think it's hard to kill huge SoDs? Let them kill you instead, and use artillery to gruadually soften them up.

 

[warpstorm]

I never use artilary in civ3 and find it useless

Explain what is useless about a unit that has no chance of getting hurt?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think people think they aren't effective enough, thus they appear useless. If built in enough numbers, Artillery is extremely useful, it just requires a more patient play-style.

 

[Himalia]

The way I deal with such SoDs is to use infantry to block their way. Infantry is hard to kill without artillery support, and the same thing happens both ways. If you use infantry to block AI's infantry, AI will either walk around it or try to attack your infantry with high casualty.

So you think it's hard to kill huge SoDs? Let them kill you instead, and use artillery to gruadually soften them up.

Couldnt agree more defensively you can do far more damage. A couple of barricades later and your sorted i would say thats one of the reason im not so impressed with artillery. Yes have some but thats all. I often accompany my armies with a group of workers who all build barricades for me when i set up outside someone city that im attacking. Makes it a nightmare for them if they want to counter attack.

 

[ThERat]

for people who don't believe in the power of artillery, a good old game of AW is recommended. You will soon appreciate the power of arty. Of course, you cannot see them in isolation, they only work together with defensive and offensive units. that's why I do not understand people who say Civ4 will finally give the need to diversify your army. I mean, in Civ3 we already have to do that, on higher levels nobody will survive with building just 1 or 2 types of units.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, even on quite high levels I have been very, very successful using SoD's-though I have cringed every time I have done it (as I am usually a purist when it comes to combined arms). It is only when I am being a purist that I ever bother to have a mix of units-or arty support-as a SoD can afford fairly large casualties in Civ3 before you are in danger. I really like a system that genuinely encourages a combined arms approach-as Civ4 is claiming-rather than one which simply relies on people being purists-or exceedingly high difficulty levels-in order to get combined arms.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Dark Russell]

I find that combined arms is the only way to go for me. I always play huge maps so with tons of units, you need a hefty stack of arty.

Here is a reason for tons of arty:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=120317
See post #12.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Also, if you want to find an effective use of Artillery, read Bamspeedy's Beyond Sid game, where the only units used were Spearman upgrades (Spears, Pikes, Musketeers) and Artillery and upgrades (Catapults, Cannons, Artillery). Iirc, this was before Trebuchets, but they would have fit in as well.

 

[Illini Rule]

U need to many artilary to make them useful

 

[Illini Rule]

Explain what is useless about a unit that has no chance of getting hurt?

It cant defend itself so i found it just as unusful as airplanes. Whenever i built them they were just taken from me

 

[Louis XXIV]

First off, you just have to escort them. Second off, airplanes are extremely useful, both pre-C3C and post. Pre-C3C you had the potential to redline veteran units with one pass and could completely destroy a civs infrastructure with Carpet Bombing. Post-C3C, they had a greater chance of being shot down, but you could kill units as well.

EDIT: Although you need a lot of artillery, you never need too much to make it useful, since you won't get any casualties in a large stack, won't need reenforcements, and can conquer enemy territory in a sustanable drive for a longer period of time.