Artistry and Tradition are too stacked on each other.

[Thibix Magnus]

I think tradition is nigh impossible to pull off on higher levels without an amazing start. Statecraft is just a no-go for tradition IMO, while fealty is very good for tradition with extra production, faith and science, exactly the things it needs desperately. For science victory tradition I would go always fealty, going artistry is too brittle, only for games that you are already safe or winning. I also select artistry after authority or progress with authority (and some fealty) mix sometimes but mostly with Rome.

I agree artistry seems too weak and too narrow in effects compared to statecraft or fealty.

interesting, that seems to go against the premise of the discussion, that tradition is shoehorned into artistry. I can reasonably pull off a CV tradition-artistry on immortal. If I went for SV I always thought I would be better off with just starting progress instead of trad-fealty. I imagine deity changes everything though, my only rare deity wins are progress - DV.

To me the limiting factor of tradition is maybe the low supply cap and the aggro it generates.

 

[pineappledan]

I think you need to re-read the proposed changes and your own response.

- I did not propose removing any culture from the tree, only science from the scaler and replacing it with faster GA triggers.
- You said that Artistry doesn’t need any more GA yields… and then suggested they get +10% production during GAs.
- you assert that artistry shouldn’t have bonuses for wonder construction or great works, because Artistry “isn’t about those”, but it’s the only policy tree that has bonuses to either of those things before industrial. Tradition doesn’t have any bonuses to either of those, so I perceive the GW, wonder, and numerous GA bonuses as being core to the tree.
- That’s 2 people now who have claimed that Fealty has a GAP bonus. It has a WLTKD bonus, but I don’t see a GA bonus. What are people talking about?

 

[Rekk]

It has a WLTKD bonus, but I don’t see a GA bonus.

Burghers works for both WLTKD and Golden Ages.

 

[azum4roll]

Burghers works for both WLTKD and Golden Ages.

Does it stack if you have both?

 

[SpecifiedUsername]

I think you need to re-read the proposed changes and your own response.

- I did not propose removing any culture from the tree, only science from the scaler and replacing it with faster GA triggers.
- You said that Artistry doesn’t need any more GA yields… and then suggested they get +10% production during GAs.
- you assert that artistry shouldn’t have bonuses for wonder construction or great works, because Artistry “isn’t about those”, but it’s the only policy tree that has bonuses to either of those things before industrial. Tradition doesn’t have any bonuses to either of those, so I perceive the GW, wonder, and numerous GA bonuses as being core to the tree.
- That’s 2 people now who have claimed that Fealty has a GAP bonus. It has a WLTKD bonus, but I don’t see a GA bonus. What are people talking about?

I might have been non-coherent and wrote it badly, sorry, better to not re-read, I will try to explain:

- Sure, but it's just more of what artistry does right now, which is boring IMO, not very strong, and locked mostly to tall playstyle. And tradition already has late science policy (fourth) and struggles with science a lot, at least up to a Sankore. This would be a nerf and narrowing.
- Bonus production is very, very solid boost, useful to any playstyle with artistry. I don't consider it GA yield, it is GA, but what I meant I should had written it as a culture or soft bonuses.
- I didn't say it shouldn't have bonuses about great works, I even proposed great works to science scaler, instead of happiness. I didn't say it isn't about those. If you consider "GW, wonder, and numerous GA bonuses as being core to the tree", no wonder the tree is so weak and limited mostly to tradition. Anyway, for example wonders are not at all artistry, they have literally just ones weak bonus of +100.
- It was added to burghers about a year ago. It triggers for WLTKD for me, not for GA, so they also don't stack.

I consider artistry great people and culture, later tourism tree (none of them require wonders or creation of GW), not GA or GW or wonders tree like you.
Making it give more culture or science and production is a way of making it available for progress too, which is now very weak and still be troublesome combo, and more consistent for authority, which is very situational.
Statecraft and fealty are opened for a variety of playstyles, fealty I think 100% of victory conditions, statecraft any wide (75% lets say), while artistry is punished and locked. Why?

 

[Rekk]

Does it stack if you have both?

Yes.

 

[Legen]

(esp. for tradition as it has the least science in its tree)

That's Authority, unless you're really snowballing in your wars and barb hunts. Tradition has good science in the long run due to the extra scientist slot, +10% yields at the Capital and access to the University of Sankore. With the latter, Tradition even compares favorably with Progress. It's just that Tradition gets its science much later and isn't designed around rewarding science like Progress is (culture on techs, infrastructure bonuses to actually make use of what your techs unlock).

Artistry's policies usually focus on things related to great works. More yields from Humanism, multiple bonuses related to guilds and buildings that store great works (Amphitheater, Opera House, World Wonders), and the ability to see Hidden antiquity sites. It also has four ways to boost Golden Ages (scaler, Heritage, Cultural Exchange, finisher), so GAs are a focus as well. I think those are already enough focuses for a single tree, I don't think it should go too heavy on other things, such as science and non-cultural GPs.

Making it give more culture or science and production is a way of making it available for progress too, which is now very weak and still be troublesome combo, and more consistent for authority, which is very situational.

The abundance of culture and frequent GAs are already quite strong, honestly. This is the tree to go for in order to achieve permanent GAs. If you want it to be better for Progress and Authority, it is enough to move Cultural Exchange's "+2 Culture and Production to Amphitheaters and Opera Houses" to an earlier policy, such as Refinement. It is the main infrastructure bonus of the tree and is currently among the last ones you can pick.

Progress would also benefit from Artistry giving a bonus towards archaeologists, since the tree is focused on science and tends to unlock them before Tradition and Authority rivals.

Here is what I propose:
Tradition
Splendor - Expending a Great Person grants 50 Culture (currently 50 Golden Age Points and Culture)
Finisher - Add +1 City working range. Remove +25% Golden Age length

Artistry
Opener - Add Earn Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians +25% faster. Remove +25% Great Person Rate in all Cities
Scaler - +2 Golden Age Points in all cities and -5% Golden Age Meter size. (ie. shrinks the number of GAP needed to trigger golden ages by 5% per policy. remove +1 in all cities)
National Treasure - Free Great Person of your choice. 33% of Happiness produced in each City is added to the City's Science per Turn. (used to be 50 gold for GP expend. happiness to science works the same as fealty's happiness to culture)

I think this proposal is an overall nerf to both trees, which I don't think they need. I'd go with something like this:

Tradition
Opener - 4 food in the Capital instead of 2 food.
Scaler - add "+1 food in the Capital".
Splendor - Remove the 50 Golden Age Points from GP expenditure.
Finisher - Add +1 City working range. Remove +25% Golden Age length.

Artistry
Opener - Change the "+25% Great Person Rate" to "Earn Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians +33% faster".
National Treasure - Replace the gold from GP expenditure with "Archaeologists gain +1 Movement and are trained 100% faster".
Refinement - Gain "+2 Culture and Production to Amphitheaters and Opera Houses".
Cultural Heritage - Loses "+2 Culture and Production to Amphitheaters and Opera Houses".

 

[Cebrudras]

Replace the gold from GP expenditure with "Archaeologists gain +1 Movement and are trained 100% faster".

That is way too far off. By the time this matters you will already be in the next tree.

Maybe we could put something interacting with stuff like the Olympics in there. Those have rewards that are great for touristy strategies and start early enough, but are hard to get for artistry due to a lack of production in my experience. It still is pretty niche though.

 

[Rekk]

Hidden Sites is already enough of a buff to archaeologists.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree, archaeologists are too far away; it would feel like a dead policy for a long time.

I think 5% reduction to the GA meter is stronger than +1 science in all cities, so I tried to nerf other parts to compensate a bit.

Another option would be some other augmentation to Historic Events, since Artistry already adds 2 new triggers for that. Maybe an instant yield, or a % modification of the instant tourism, like what Arabia used to have?

 

[Legen]

That is way too far off. By the time this matters you will already be in the next tree.

I agree, archaeologists are too far away; it would feel like a dead policy for a long time.

Just place it in the finisher then, switching places with the only bonus there that isn't related to archaeologists. Like this:

National Treasure
A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital. Starting a Golden Age generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.

Finisher
Unlocks building the Louvre.
Archaeologists gain +1 Movement, are trained 100% faster, and completing an Archaeological Dig generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.
Allows you to see Hidden Antiquity Sites, and Landmarks gain +3 Science and Golden Age Points.
Allows for the purchase of Great Musicians with Faith starting in the Industrial Era.

 

[SullySaltlicker]

I can’t agree with the extra tile work range. Tradition focuses on specialists, and working specialists means you’re not working tiles. It’s standard play for a Tradition civ (at least IMO) to work more and more specialists as the game goes on; eventually working more specialists than tiles. Adding an extra ring on hexes to work seems situational at best.

IMO you’re in the right direction, b/c the G.Age mechanic benefits wide civs best due to the percentages being applied to more cities and having more tiles to produce gold, while WLTKD works more for tall civs due to food growth as well as not having to manage so many resource triggers across your empire. I’d replace one of the G.Age buffs (prob the finisher) with some sort of production buff tied to WLTKD (I’m open to discussing the exact implementation). This would be nice because other people have also pointed out that the tall Tradition play style falls behind on military later on, and production buffs would also help with tall civs just not having as many cities (i.e. production queues) to work with.

A related idea is moving faith purchasing for Great Artists to the Artistry finisher, so that you can use their hurry function; this solidifies Artistry’s focus on triggering Golden Ages. From the other end, you could also argue that moving G.Musicians to Fealty helps with infrastructure due to the trade route buffs from cultural influence. More tourism also helps militaristic civs with spying and preserving cities after capture.

 

[stii]

Yeah agree, the extra ring seems pretty unexciting. Only really useful for one city builds.

 

[SpecifiedUsername]

Yeah, I many times work 5-6 specialists when my city has only 8-9 citizens. I supply food through internal trade works/apostolic. I already work many good tiles from the capital by the satellite cities, especially likes, oases, farms on wheat. For classical era until Sankore, tradition capital needs mostly heavy production tiles IMO. So I don't even utulize my 1-2 ring with tradition capital, so agreed that 4th one is rather not a strong buff in most circumstances.

 

[Legen]

A WLTKD bonus makes sense as a replacement to Tradition's GA bonuses, given the abundance of food and growth bonuses in the tree. I wouldn't add production to WLTKD, though, since Fealty already does that in the Burghers policy. I think Tradition could have the +10% food buff from Industry's Protectionism and the latter could replace it with a gold modifier; I don't think Industry should be giving such a direct food/growth bonuses when Rationalism already does that in its finisher.

Of the +1 working range, it is indeed very situational. I think the tree would actually see more use out of a +1 attack range instead, which would work well with the +25% ranged city CS modifier from being garrisoned. Tradition is overall the most defensive of the ancient era policies and was meant to have a smaller army (which saves production), it makes sense to enhance its city defenses to ensure that it is a viable plan. That would also make the Tradition-Progress-Authority triad resemble the turtling-booming-rushing triad seen on some RTS games, for those that want further playstyle differentiation among the Ancient Era trees.

I have also been changing some of my opinions on Artistry, but not by much. For now, I lean towards the following proposal:

Tradition
Opener - 4 Food in the Capital instead of 2 Food.
Justice - Add "+1 attack range in all cities".
Splendor - Remove the 50 Golden Age Points from GP expenditure.
Finisher - Remove +25% Golden Age length from Throne Room. Add "+10% Food during WLTKD".

Artistry
Opener - Change the "+25% Great Person Rate" to "Earn Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians +33% faster".
National Treasure - Replace the Gold from GP expenditure with " Great works produce +4 Gold and Golden age points".
Refinement - Gain "+2 Culture and Production to Amphitheaters and Opera Houses".
Cultural Heritage - Loses "+2 Culture and Production to Amphitheaters and Opera Houses".

Industry
Protectionism - Replace "+10% Food during WLTKD" with "+10% Gold during WLTKD".

 

[SpecifiedUsername]

Opener - 4 Food in the Capital instead of 2 Food.
Justice - Add "+1 attack range in all cities".
Splendor - Remove the 50 Golden Age Points from GP expenditure.
Finisher - Remove +25% Golden Age length from Throne Room. Add "+10% Food during WLTKD".

Why not just +2 instead of +1 in all cities in engineer policy, or +2 in the capital at the opener?

 

[rkkn]

Why not just +2 instead of +1 in all cities in engineer policy, or +2 in the capital at the opener?

+2 in all cities would definitely be a boost, but that makes it similar to the other two trees. Progress gets you +3 in all cities, and authority gets you +1 per policy. Tradition not having this differentiates it. It's firmly capital focused.
And I do think the extra food is better (more suited to the tree) than adding more production, as the tree is about specialists, and food is what you need in order to work those. Production is a helpful bonus but not a fitting one.

 

[Rekk]

Industry absolutely does not need more gold.

 

[pineappledan]

Adding +1 range would be a catastrophe. There is already a wonder that adds +1 range, so that is potential for 5 range in 1 city and 4 range everywhere else. 4 city range is and enormous buff, not just because that ring adds 24 possible attack tiles, it would allow you to attack cities with other cities directly, because 4 tiles in the minimum settle distance.

No. A thousand times no to that one.

 

[Hinin]

Adding +1 range would be a catastrophe. There is already a wonder that adds +1 range, so that is potential for 5 range in 1 city and 4 range everywhere else. 4 city range is and enormous buff, not just because that ring adds 24 possible attack tiles, it would allow you to attack cities with other cities directly, because 4 tiles in the minimum settle distance.

No. A thousand times no to that one.

It seems cities can't attack other cities though.