Artistry and Tradition are too stacked on each other.

[Legen]

I'm putting together a few changes and going to release them soon in my tweaks mod:

Tradition
Splendor - Expending a Great Person grants 50 Culture (currently 50 Golden Age Points and Culture)
Finisher - Add +1 City working range in capital. Remove +25% Golden Age length

Artistry
Opener - +25% Great Person Rate in all Cities replaced with Earn Great Artists, Writers, and Musicians +25% faster
Heritage - Removed 200GAP from constructing World Wonders. Lowered yields on University from 46 to 44Added -25% GAPs needed to trigger a Golden Age
National Treasure - Removed 50 on GP expend. added 250 from constructing World Wonders, Scaling with Era

Overall this removes 2 policy bonuses that are found elsewhere (yield on GP expend and GA length), and adds 2 new ones (working range in capital, GA meter reduction), so more diverse mechanics overall (yay)
Removes all GA-related bonuses from Tradition
Removes overt GEMS bonuses from Artistry without affecting the GWAM bonuses.
Removes overlap of early GAPs on expend with Pyramids.

The relative power of the GA meter reduction and the working tile radius increase would need playtesting, but I think these bonuses will be a pretty big buff to Artistry. The GA meter reduction effectively makes each point of GAPs stronger. Might need to take some sources of GAPs off the rest of the tree to compensate, like reducing the scaler to 1 per city.

I'm testing these changes with Egypt, a civ that normally has incentives to go Tradition-Artistry for the GA bonuses. Not that it is pigeonholed into that, people have played with Authority for the UU, but Artistry is a must either way.

So far (entering Industrial Era), Tradition's changes are ok. The extra working range has been useful simply because the capital is the city you had the least information available before settling; less scouting, no horses or iron revealed, and pressure to settle in no less than one or two turns. I'm making use of resources I wouldn't be able to otherwise thanks to the finisher acting as a failsafe net. It meant access to more good production tiles when building wonders (very useful), less need to take good tiles away from satellite cities, and more room for placing manufactories where the capital can share it with a satellite city. I think it could be available earlier; this extra working range has good uses to mitigate Tradition's weak production on its satellite cities.

The loss of GA bonuses isn't noticeable for Tradition's gameplay itself. The tree doesn't have specific bonuses regarding GAs, unlike Artistry and Rationalism with their +10% culture or science during GAs, respectively. Those GA bonuses also come late in the tree and aren't timed for any source of free GAs.

Artistry's changes are somewhat convoluted. Losing the 25% GPP to non-cultural GPs is noticeable, as towns and manufactories are useful for building wonders and making use of the new 250 gold per era on wonder completion (and, in my case, Egypt's UA). On the other hand, the gold on wonder completion is often a refund of your gold investment on wonders. Wonder whoring with National Treasure goes from extremely taxing on your economy, to easily affordable. If you are going heavy on wonders (and being successful), the tweaked Opener + National Treasure is an overall buff and well timed for the Renaissance Era. Otherwise, it is a nerf, you're getting less if you're behind or prioritizing something else. Overall, the tweaked Opener + National Treasure adjusts Artistry to be a "win more" tree.

The -25% GAP cost is not as powerful in practice as it appears at first. The reasons for that are:

• It doesn't interact with free GAs, such as from Taj Mahal, certain projects from the World Congress, or Freedom's Universal Suffrage;
• It doesn't come as early as Tradition's original GAP from GPs, it is as if you started at a negative GAP generation by the time you unlock Heritage;
• The lack of a +25% GA duration to boost the value of GAP as a yield;

For GA play, the tweaks to Tradition and Artistry are an overall nerf. Civs that rely on GAs are nerfed, especially Brazil, who cares more about GAP generation than actually spending time in a GA. The overall conclusion for Heritage, and Artistry as a whole, is that they don't cover the hole left by tweaked Tradition to support golden ages.

 

[pineappledan]

The 25% GA length modifier hypothetically makes each point of GAP 25% more valuable, but in reality it’s only 20% stronger, because GAs on standard speed are 10 turns long, so 25% longer rounds down to 2 extra turns.

A 25% reduction of the GA meter means that each GAP is 33% more valuable (1/0.75=1.33).

So one method is 20% stronger, but works on instant GA triggers, and the other is 33% stronger, but doesn’t affect instant GAs. It seems pretty clear to me which is better, unless you’re playing Aztecs. The GA meter reduction is especially strong for Brazil. Who doesn’t care about GA length, only about triggering multiple GAs. It also makes GArtists bulbs stronger, which ties neatly into artistry’s theme.

Regardless, I think it’s more helpful to keep the analysis of the trees’ balance isolated to themselves for now.
Artistry loses:
- 25% GEMSD rate
- 50 on GP expend
- 200GAP on wonder build
- 2GAP per turn on universities
Artistry gains
- 25% GA meter reduction
- 250gold on wonder build

The gold on wonder build is stronger than the GAP trigger. The GA meter reduction is a good bonus, but if it doesn’t compensate for losing both the gold on GP expend and the GEMSD then perhaps something more is needed. Ideally, with the GA meter reduction, I would like to lower the scaler to 1GAP per city per policy and add or strengthen 1 more effect somewhere else. I think there’s more than enough raw GAP generation on the tree as is.

It would be nice to add something more to Refinement (+1for each guild and for every 3great works). It is a very weak And uninteresting if policy.

 

[Legen]

Continuing my feedback, currently in the middle of Modern Era.

The tweaks to Artistry fall off abruptly at Industrial Era. There are two reasons for that:

• This era has about half the amount of wonders of Renaissance (accounting that two of them are policy locked); the gold on wonder completion goes from "win more" to "occasional".
• This era has a sudden influx of great people. Faith purchases are unlocked, and all guilds are set in your cities.

These two factors greatly reduce the usefulness of the gold on wonders, at the point where the original Tradition + Artistry synergy really starts to show. Gold per GP birth here is a consistent and reliable effect in this era and, paired with GAP on GP birth, results in a relatively easy time maintaining a golden age chain. I'm finding that the -25% GAP cost doesn't compete with untweaked Tradition's GAP on GP birth, and even less when factoring the +25% GA duration.

Another point about Industrial Era is that, at this point, you may have finally got a level 3 spy. This is important, as at this level, spies have access to two missions on enemy cities can can result in free GAs (steal tech and create a GW forgery); sending a spy on a backward civ's city and ordering it to steal a tech is a free source of GAs. You can use it for important timings, such as a wonder (especially in my case as Egypt) or an incoming world congress project. On the latter, if the project is World Fair, that is another source of free GA to keep the GA chain going without paying a GAP cost.

Overall, I'm finding that tweaked Artistry is weaker than Fealty and Statecraft as a standalone tree once Industrial Era hits. Both alternatives have decent ways to trigger GAs on their own; Fealty can purchase a Great Artist if needed, and Statecraft has an extra spy to level up, giving it better odds of getting a level 3 spy by this point. And they can do that as a secondary benefit, without relying on that for their viability as a standalone social tree. I think that, without the synergies with untweaked Tradition, or support from a civ's uniques, tweaked Artistry ends as a weak Medieval tree and is in need of buffs to compete.

Modern Era isn't looking that different from Industrial, similar number of wonders, though less great people from increased faith costs. Ideologies play a bigger role by now and, in my case with Freedom, the +50% GA duration and free golden age from Universal Suffrage has been a major boost to GA gameplay, more than the reduced GAP cost from Artistry. Meanwhile, Covert Action adds a consistent and quick way to train spies; coups seem to give them far more experience than other methods.

Notably, Freedom is affected by the tweaks to Artistry because the lower GPP rate to great engineer/merchant/scientist means less GPTIs for New Deal and less influence procs from Arsenal of Democracy.

Overall, the tweaks to Artistry have poor scaling past Renaissance; the thing that is most carrying the tree at this point are the archaeologist related effects, especially as Egypt.

The GA meter reduction is especially strong for Brazil. Who doesn’t care about GA length, only about triggering multiple GAs. It also makes GArtists bulbs stronger, which ties neatly into artistry’s theme.

I think the opposite of that. Brazil's main point is that GAP doubles as gold and tourism, the more GAP you can accumulate, the merrier. Triggering GAs is only beneficial as an extra source of Carnival (unique WLTKD), which you can already have high uptime from luxury trade once all civs are met. The GA trigger is mostly useful as a way to reroll a city's demand in case it asked for a luxury from a faraway city-state, controlled by a civ that hates you, or from one that only one copy and keeps saying "Impossible!". In other worlds, the GA trigger is like having more Circuses.

Reduced GAP costs don't help with the GAP conversion. Brazil is still getting the same amount of gold and tourism per GAP converted, regardless of the GA cost. What wins games as this civ is maximizing how much GAP you can accumulate, not how often you trigger GAs. Triggering GAs frequently is useful due to Carnival, but the civ doesn't rely on GA triggers to keep the cities under carnivals; it is more of a convenience than a requirement.

 

[balparmak]

I agree on the problem but I don't understand why Tradition is effectively nerfed. I'm willing to accept the Finisher bonus being replaced with a very situational (tbh gimmicky) one, but Splendor losing GAP without gaining anything feels just wrong. Tall play is already penalized by many mechanics (monopolies, resources, wars, league projects) It's not like people were complaining about Tradition being OP, if anything it's the opposite https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/is-there-ever-any-reason-to-pick-tradition.672183/

I remember a discussion on Tradition's low supply issue, don't remember the specifics though. If it's an early game problem there can be sth like +1 supply per policy, if it's a general one the Finisher can get an era scaling supply bonus.

+1 working range sounds nice on paper, but it works against Tradition's inherent focus on specialists. Sure it may allow a good 4th ring production tile, but that's only needed because engineer specialists/GPs suck. Idk maybe tradition can also get +1 prod per GPTI in addition to +1 food. Very minor gimmick, but still better than +1 capital range.

 

[pineappledan]

If the lodge building goes through I would like to add +1 to it on ceremony. I also suggested we split amphitheater and museum into 2 buildings as a way to slow CV down, so 1 if those could be added to Artistry’s 2 boost at cultural exchange

At this point I think people just need to tell me what a “fair” compensation for losing a GP expend bonus is.

 

[Legen]

I finished my game with tweaked Tradition and Artistry, the only noteworthy thing from Modern Era onwards is that spending a great artist is usually enough to get a very long GA chain before the tweaks. In terms of wonders, Atomic has only one wonder available for everyone, and two that are policy locked.

I tried to use a spy for a Golden Age, to check if it is working, but the steal tech mission just gets reset as soon as there's nothing to steal, apparently. My spy never managed to generate a golden age through that. GW forgery doesn't seem practical; I think the city needs to have one GW by the time you start the mission and the city has to empty its GW slots before the mission finishes, a.k.a. you have to be about to conquer the city.

Overall, the points in the previous posts remain. The tweaked National Heritage has a time to shine during Renaissance, then falls considerably in Industrial and never recovers. Tweaked Heritage isn't a proper substitute for Tradition's original Splendor due to its later timing and in how Splendor spikes in utility at Industrial Era. Tweaked Tradition still plays largely the same, but I do think it is overall nerfed, given how much Splendor and the finisher contribute in maintaining GAs. As it is, the civs that were supposed to gain flexibility with the tweaks are nerfed, regardless of what options they go for.

At this point I think people just need to tell me what a “fair” compensation for losing a GP expend bonus is.

Tradition would need to compensate for the loss of the +25% GEMS generation in Artistry, at least, since Artistry is dissociating itself from general GP generation in favor of heavier GA bonuses. I think Tradition has bigger issues than GP or GA generation, though. Tradition's GP generation is actually fine in the tweaked version, even with Artistry's GP generation nerfed. And the tree isn't really dependent on GAs to function.

The common complaint, and my experience with Tradition, is that it simply takes way too long to develop compared to the other trees. While this is expected of the satellite cities, it shouldn't be for the Capital; Tradition's Capital early on doesn't develop noticeably faster that those of the other trees. It is at 5th and 6th policies that the Capital starts to take shape due to extra food available. My opinion is that Tradition could benefit a lot from having more early food and production in the Capital. Similarly, a more competitive scaler could do a lot; the +3% growth in all cities and +1 science in the capital is actually quite weak compared to the scalers of Progress and Authority. For instance:

Scaler - "+3% Growth in all cities, and +1 Food, Production and Science in the Capital".

I don't know if that would be comparable to the GAP on Splendor, but a tweak around those lines would address more important matters on how Tradition plays, and be flavorful relative to the other trees.

 

[pineappledan]

I prefer @balparmak’s idea of adding To GPTIs because that actually addresses the GEMS nerf instead of just stacking the capital even more.

Pursuant to the revelations in @L. Vern ‘s analysis, and in light of some other approved changes to the late game tile/ converters, which are going to come later, and be harder to get in the next big balance change, I think adding a global 25% tile converter to artistry would be a good idea. It looks like CV civs are winning, but not the cv civs that add culture to tiles. This mechanic isn’t contributing to the VC issues. For example, Polynesia only won 2 games in that analysis of 93 games, and 1 of those victories was via Diplo.

That would also tie into Artistry’s landmark/archaeology bonuses

 

[CrazyG]

I'm a bit rusty but I'll just throw in my 2 cents

Part of what's so good about tradition and golden ages is almost all of tradition's culture counts towards the golden age bonus (the 50 per great person being the only exception). It is also one of very few times that % bonuses will stack multiplicatively rather than additively. (the +10% in the capital is effectively 12% during a golden age). This logic repeats for mosques as well (which tradition also has access to a free copy of in their capital).

The problem that progress/authority face is that a golden age isn't +20% because it doesn't affect bonus yields. For tradition bonus yields are a truly just a bonus (a small extra that you pick up), while for progress its all of the culture they have. Another way to think about it would be that for tradition, golden ages give +19% (possibly even more) while for progress its probably just +10% if not lower.

This is why progress-artistry works for Polynesia, because they just drown in culture regardless of your social policies give, and features like the faster workers and 3 food per city are appealing to get the up and running earlier. I think its the only civ where this combo makes any sense. Brazil almost works but in practice its just better with tradition (I guess you could play progress Egypt?)

 

[pineappledan]

TIL the archived threads aren’t locked.

 

[CrazyG]

TIL the archived threads aren’t locked.

Lol I'm just getting used to the new forum

 

[SpecifiedUsername]

The fact that we all consider sankore as basically free mosque for tradition is very troubling and pushes me to promote untying wonders to policies but giving production bonus for them for completion.