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Askia

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by TeeInKay, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. TeeInKay

    TeeInKay Warlord

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    I have been playing with Askia and it's been incredibly easy. I have way too much gold. 450 per camp at epic speed is overwhelming.

    Maybe just a really good game. I am easily leading every column on deity. It's about to be colonial times and there are two capitals not under my control. No real resistance the entire game. They are trying. Good cities, nice armies. I am just so rich I buy units each turn and just bathe their lands in blood. The map isn't full yet so barbarians are still spawning. They cannot fill the map because they have been fighting me since turn 0. And it's all down to 450 gold per barbarian camp.
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    It's 150 gold per camp on standard speed, I usually find that I don't get too much use out of it, maybe 5 camps at most, so that's an extra 500 gold compared to other civs, enough to buy 4 archers. Is it broken or not? Hard to say, it is extremely dependent on your map-choice. Attila's UA works the exact same way, if there is enough empty space where barbs can spawn it is extremely powerful, otherwise it is kinda meh.
     
  3. TeeInKay

    TeeInKay Warlord

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    Yeah you're right if I didn't have any camps I'd be far behind. So it's just a good game in you opinion?
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Or a good map, were you running communitas or something like that? That map tends to be extremely empty.
     
  5. TeeInKay

    TeeInKay Warlord

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    Yeah I was. And yeah it was. Usually adds to the fun. In this case, it did not.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I can't play Communitas maps anymore, it just drives me insane how much space there is, you usually end up with more resource-tiles than non-resource-tiles near your cities and no neighbors anywhere close. Also tend to be very peaceful, which I necessarily don't hate, but it gets boring. My last Oval game had 3 civs eliminated before turn 150 on standard-speed, I mean that's how it should be :D
     
  7. TeeInKay

    TeeInKay Warlord

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    I actually tweak the mapscript over and over till I get a generate that pleases me. Often i cant tell for 100 or so turns. I have many abandoned games.

    A generate that please me has at least half the civs in good starts and in contention. And as you mentioned enough plots to work with. I cant stand the resource clouds. Usually play on sparse, but with additional strategics. (RAS) It's not awesome though. I'm looking into making it better too. Hopefully I will have some success.

    Posted about that in the MODS thread.
     
  8. EriktheRead

    EriktheRead Chieftain

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    So lets discuss the change to the UU. Right now, 5 of these guys and you can rolfstomp an Ai player who has no walls really easy. The authority heal bonus nerf probably slows this down to less overpowered. I havnt found another ancient unit that beats the utility of this one as far as taking names and cities is concerned, possibly the Mongol skirmisher. I assume the change was made to make the barb camp gold more achievable.

    In light of the UB and the UA, this unit rolls up a really strong early game, and the river culture and movement keeps the civ relevant through the ages. There are a several other civs that can almost match or match a well placed Askia City in culture, but only a few can truly beat it, and they are really terrain Dependant (Brazil and the Hawaiians).
     
    IcyAngel likes this.
  9. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    Even with the authority nerf, you still can't really stop askia at this moment. Mandeluke cavalry switching to ancient era was a really big buff, especially when they don't have penalties against cities, starts off with raiders, has amphibious to start, AND is a whopping 18 CS to top it off. The only limit to this is if you don't have horses. Mongols can't even compete because skirmishers are at mathematics, and even though they have 6 movement, it still can't compare to 18CS ancient era tech.
     
  10. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    The Huns could probably take them on. Just get like 5 Barb Camps and you should be good.
     
  11. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    5 barb camps can't really do much against 18 CS UUs that come out after 2-3 techs with 4 movement and amphibious. Songhai's absolute top civ right now imo. You should give it a run yourself and see how easy it is.

    Edit: Fyi, I killed my first neighbour around turns 30-40 with 2-3 mandeluke cavalry.

    Edit 2: Also, attacking cities allow you to buy your next unit, since you get gold whenever you hit a city.
     
  12. Takagi Hiro

    Takagi Hiro Prince

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    These guys are so broken right now. I had three capitals before turn 80 or so. When you try to list pros/cons for this civ, you really can't come up with many cons.
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    You guys weren't kidding, Mandeks are beyond broken. I mean Tabya itself is probably the best UB in the game, but Mandeks? When using those, I've felt like a heavyweight boxer facing a bunch of children and bullying them effortlessly. I've encountered no resistance on my entire continent, everything fell. I've declared war on everyone at the same time by backstabs and won without breaking a sweat. Pretty convenient considering I needed to puppet cities fast to help research a bug, in this regard Songhai are the best assistants.

    Even the Zulu were no threat to say the least. I've just declared war on them, destroyed their stuff and left.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
    IcyAngel likes this.
  14. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    They are overpowered, but moving them to the ancient era also made the unique feel way more random, given the RNG involved with starting next to horses. It also doesn't really fit that well with the time Songhai were active, but that kinda goes for the Tabya as well so I guess that's fair.

    Also worth mentioning that the cataphract is worse than ever before, now trading 1 movement for a 15ish% increase to CS.


    That being said I don't feel like saying that they are destroying Zulu before the Zulu unlocks their unique unit should be some indication, I mean clearly a civ with all their uniques unlocked should beat one that is still waiting for theirs.
     
  15. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Yeah, but Zulu are meant to be the elite as their entire UB and UA is just buffing their troops and gives no yields (except for less maintenance, which is pretty cool), and I doubt it's the desired effect that I've managed to declare war on my entire continent and stomp 6 civs with like 5-8 mandeks spread around the world (like 2 west, 2 east, 2 north, 2 south, but often joining others), getting thousands of gold in the process and lots of Culture and production from the UB.

    Basically, right now Songhai is better than Zulu at fighting in ancient and classical (nothing to counter Mandek comes in Classical), economy (camp + city conquest gold, river connections, free Mandek Danish gold-on-attack UA), production+culture+building (Tabya). Only starting medieval does Zulu get the edge on anything... Except the Knight still keeps Amphibious, Canoe and City Raider.

    Also even walled cities are defenseless if you go the Drill route with two-three Mandeks.

    Similar stuff doesn't happen to Zulu in other early-era cases. Legion, for instance, is still arguably worse than a Zulu Swordsman. Same with Hoplites/Immortals/Picts - they're pretty much sidegrades to a Zulu Spearman. That's because Zulu trades having an UB for turning all melee stuff into UUs starting from Ancient Era pretty much.

    Meanwhile, Mandek just owns everything, owns its counters, destroys all cities and has free best part of Denmark UA with bonus Flank strapped on to it.

    And yeah Cataphract is absolutely terrible. It should unlock slightly earlier and get 4 movement. I mean, a Conquistador has more CS, IIRC no city attack penalty instead of -25%, more movement and can settle overseas cities that are far better than what Pioneers have. Sure, Cataphract can fortify, sure, different civs, but still...
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The Mandekalu cav is a little potent right now. Nerfhammer incoming.
     
  17. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    I do want to say that the bonus against cities (or lack of penalty) wasn't terribly useful in the slightly older Askia game I played when mancavs still replaced knights, it seems like it would fit much better with them still being an Ancient/Classical era replacement. Though it was still fun sneaking a couple of them past the front lines, attacking a city to steal a tiny bit of gold, and then pillaging tiles to heal off the damage and get more gold.
     
  18. Dawnbringer

    Dawnbringer Warlord

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    It is a good fit. Just...TOO good at the moment.

    The difference was that in the period with knights, walls are generally up at this point and mandeluke can't rush it down even with the attacking city penalty removed. We're talking about ancient tree tech and during this time period until mid-classical, walls are uncommon, thus, the current askia rampage is basically unstoppable. Also, there aren't any units that could deal with the 18CS in the current version during ancient/classical era, where as pikemen/long swordsmen with proper terrain would do decent against them in medieval in the old version.

    Yes. We're beating a dead horse pretty severely.
     
  19. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Yeah, definitely not suggesting that they don't need a nerf, just saying I liked the era change in respect to their city attacking/raiding capabilities.
     
  20. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    Holy-Zombie-Thread, Batman!

    Anyway, is there a special reason Mandekalus require barracks to be purchased? Ordinary Horsemen don't require it. And yet Mandekalus are cheaper (170 vs. 210g). So I'm just checking if this is intended or perhaps a vestigial remain of a bygone era of VP...
     

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