Askia

[pineappledan]

Totally nuts, but perfectly historical solution:
Move Mandekalu to knight
Give Byzantium the Dromon (replace base unit with something like a pentekonter)
Give Persia the cataphract

Reduces the number of spears
Still have a unique horseman
Now have a unique ranged ship
Better historicity (it was the Iranians that invented cataphracts, after all)

 

[azum4roll]

Unique ranged ship already exists (SotL).

I think removing the "no city attack penalty" on Mandekalu is already good enough.

 

[Rekk]

Unique ranged ship already exists (SotL).

That's like saying "we already have a unique melee unit that uses horses". We have multiple eras of unique melee ships, we can handle multiple eras of unique ranged ships.

 

[tothePAIN]

Totally nuts, but perfectly historical solution:
Move Mandekalu to knight
Give Byzantium the Dromon (replace base unit with something like a pentekonter)
Give Persia the cataphract

Reduces the number of spears
Still have a unique horseman
Now have a unique ranged ship
Better historicity (it was the Iranians that invented cataphracts, after all)

Why are you nerfing both Byzantium and Persia with these changes? Fun and balance are both more important than historians accuracy. Cataphracts and Immortals are both a key component of Byzantium Nd Persia's power. Those aren't generic UUs like say, the Atlas for the Maya.

 

[Melchizedek]

Why are you nerfing both Byzantium and Persia with these changes? Fun and balance are both more important than historians accuracy. Cataphracts and Immortals are both a key component of Byzantium Nd Persia's power. Those aren't generic UUs like say, the Atlas for the Maya.

It would depend on the stats given to them. Persia, in particular, might do better with a later UU that could more easily arrive alongside a timed golden age. However, I would be worried about Byzantium here because it isn't necessarily a maritime civ and might not be able to do much with an early ranged ship very often. However, I'm not convinced there is actually anything wrong with Songhai right now. They have a nice power spike, but everyone does. Any civ sounds OP if you only consider what they do best. Do they actually win more games than other AI?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

However, I'm not convinced there is actually anything wrong with Songhai right now. They have a nice power spike, but everyone does. Any civ sounds OP if you only consider what they do best. Do they actually win more games than other AI?

@Gazebo , what do your AI simulations show re: Songhai, are they an outlier?

 

[2506]

@Gazebo , what do your AI simulations show re: Songhai, are they an outlier?

My guess, pre-answer: there are no true outliers.

 

[andersw]

@Gazebo , what do your AI simulations show re: Songhai, are they an outlier?

And do they differ on various difficulties?

 

[stii]

So after seeing them do a few weird things I loaded Songhai up to see just how their abilities stacked together.

Their units can move twice then shoot along a river, which is very powerful but also what their ability is mean to do. However I found that this also applies in to siege units enemy territory. Their ability affects the siege units have half movement so they can also move twice then shoot. Which seems not how it is meant to work?

The AI builds an awful lot of trebuchet and having these units but much more powerful is likely what is causing them to do al ot better in war.

 

[DeAnno]

As I think I said before, the most broken part about the ability is it lets you use your fake roads in enemy territory, which among other things makes your siege units amazing. I think it would be a fair ability on a civ with a worse kit but all parts of the Songhai kit are very good, even the Tabiya is a strong early UB that gives hammers, as people have said only the Longhouse really compares. In a way I wish one of those two buildings was on a non-aggressive civ because I feel like increased hammers would be an interesting option on a civ that hesitates more to take Authority and thus struggles more with production; as it is only Babylon really can play a fairly peaceful game with an innate general production bonus (Washington's is basically a de facto wonder bonus along with Eygpt's de jure wonder bonus.)

 

[Rafs]

I agree with you DeAnno, but I also think scripts like communitas map (where I see bigger river networks compared to other maps I play) made Songai more powerful, as not only it allows you to move into hostile territory unhindered, you might even move better than the owner of the territory itself! This is quite noticeable in the early eras where there aren't many road networks available, or not so extensively at least, due to gpt/worker availability, as it helps attack others and defend yourself.
This also means you can defend your territory without building any (or barely any) road networks for defensive purposes (roads you would never build another civ probably), and that you can't have your mobility reduced by road pillaging.

While I think this is the big advantage of civs that have an UA that is terrain based (and that's ok, mind you), I feel Songai kit is probably the more well rounded and versatile compared to other terrain based civs, like incas, iroquois, or mongols (with horse archers for war), as this means they are the most flexible terrain based civ. They have an UA that not only serves war mongering purposes, it helps with early era expansions, with easier city connection and saving you up a lot of GPT (this is comparable with Iroquois though, but I think Iroquois are honestly just as strong as Songai in most cases unless you get a bad map script, it's just Iroquois AI is not quite as aggressive as Songai). On top of that, their UB is also one of the most powerful, as it will snowball you on already good starts with plenty of rivers and is available quite early on. Finally, the fact that rivers (unlike woods) cannot be removed makes defending yourself against Songai quite the hard task, and will probably mean you'll have settle and fight in places you usually wouldn't, this is quite similar how Icans are with mountains or mongols on very flat terrain.

I think siege units moving fast is just a small part of what makes songai AI so good, the gpt saving+early connection for more happiness+aggressive AI and good UB+UU makes a very powerful combo that is availbale early on and on most map scripts (rivers are almost always present near capitals), this means "latebloomer" civs can be taken out or heavily hampered early on (a horseman on a river can pillage a lot of tiles), something that has quite the snowballing effect.

Maybe making Tabya give +1 hammer if the tile adjacent to the river is improved (instead of unconditional +1) could stop the snowballing a bit at the start. Not much I can think of aside from nerfing mandekalu so songai isn't quite as powerful, but it won't change the fact that fightning songai near rivers is quite dreadful, mandekalu or not imho.

 

[Omen of Peace]

I also had the thought that Songhai is stronger on Communitas/Communitu due to the greater prevalence of rivers.

But really it's all warmonger AI that overperform recently, in my games.

 

[ChefBRD]

I agree with you DeAnno, but I also think scripts like communitas map (where I see bigger river networks compared to other maps I play) made Songai more powerful, as not only it allows you to move into hostile territory unhindered, you might even move better than the owner of the territory itself! This is quite noticeable in the early eras where there aren't many road networks available, or not so extensively at least, due to gpt/worker availability, as it helps attack others and defend yourself.
This also means you can defend your territory without building any (or barely any) road networks for defensive purposes (roads you would never build another civ probably), and that you can't have your mobility reduced by road pillaging.

While I think this is the big advantage of civs that have an UA that is terrain based (and that's ok, mind you), I feel Songai kit is probably the more well rounded and versatile compared to other terrain based civs, like incas, iroquois, or mongols (with horse archers for war), as this means they are the most flexible terrain based civ. They have an UA that not only serves war mongering purposes, it helps with early era expansions, with easier city connection and saving you up a lot of GPT (this is comparable with Iroquois though, but I think Iroquois are honestly just as strong as Songai in most cases unless you get a bad map script, it's just Iroquois AI is not quite as aggressive as Songai). On top of that, their UB is also one of the most powerful, as it will snowball you on already good starts with plenty of rivers and is available quite early on. Finally, the fact that rivers (unlike woods) cannot be removed makes defending yourself against Songai quite the hard task, and will probably mean you'll have settle and fight in places you usually wouldn't, this is quite similar how Icans are with mountains or mongols on very flat terrain.

I think siege units moving fast is just a small part of what makes songai AI so good, the gpt saving+early connection for more happiness+aggressive AI and good UB+UU makes a very powerful combo that is availbale early on and on most map scripts (rivers are almost always present near capitals), this means "latebloomer" civs can be taken out or heavily hampered early on (a horseman on a river can pillage a lot of tiles), something that has quite the snowballing effect.

Maybe making Tabya give +1 hammer if the tile adjacent to the river is improved (instead of unconditional +1) could stop the snowballing a bit at the start. Not much I can think of aside from nerfing mandekalu so songai isn't quite as powerful, but it won't change the fact that fightning songai near rivers is quite dreadful, mandekalu or not imho.

All this is right on the money. I play Songhai pretty often and they're usually the first I play when I'm stepping up difficulty or trying a new version because they're so versatile. Their movement bonuses and the absolute terror of the cavalry are 3/4 of the fun and I'd play them much less if either of these were nerfed.

That said, I could see moving their UU and maintaining the fun and/or adding to their character. Make the cav an early knight at currency. Or an even stronger LATE horseman with unique promotions at iron working--have we ever tried this? Or if we're staying ahistorical like the horseman replacement we have now, why not go with an early lancer? In any case, moving them around would make some of their later game more unique, and early warfare would still be very viable and fun with just the UA.

But why I think why they're actually so strong, especially for the ai, is that gpt advantage plus the large early hammer bonus if you play on communitas or similar maps makes them very flexible. They may not be the best, but they're the hardest to mess up.

Their UA gives almost free city connections+super movement to go with their rampant early expansion. And that money plus the hammers can really make up for most tactical mistakes in replacing units AND really widens the margin of error for expanding too fast or too early, so you're able to roll that extra supply right into new units and still not pay for roads. And if you're really looking for synergies, you can use those extra hammers to build zeus and get even better at tackling cities.

I'd be down to see a few fewer hammers from tabya by improved resource adjacency to see how much that bumps them down. (And having had a lot of fun with expansionist progress Songhai, I 100% agree that I'd like to try a peaceful civ other than Babylon with an early production bump UB.)

 

[Alpharius]

In my opinion, Songhai definitely needs to be looked at balance-wise. As far as I remember, In nearly all of the games I've played with an AI Askia(somewhere around 40-50 games, split between King and Emperor with a couple on Immortal) he's been doing an extremely good job whether on Warfare and expansion or being ahead in score.

One game that left a lasting impression on me, I remember having a (4v1) coop war against Songhai, where I bribed Byzantium and Babylon to go to war, and asked the Shoshone for a joint declaration. Fast forward around 30 turns later, not only are we not thrashing Songhai, Byzantium and Babylon has around -20 war score while the Shoshone and I were only slightly successful (below 10 war score). A few turns after that Byzantium and Babylon sues for peace, the Shoshone several turns after. While I'm not sure whether it's because of the Mandekalu cavalry or their UA, something's definitely wrong when half the world can't conquer a single civ, even pushing us back a bit. I know this is only a single game so it's hardly indicative of anything but I just thought it was completely bonkers.

 

[Hinin]

In my opinion, Songhai definitely needs to be looked at balance-wise. As far as I remember, In nearly all of the games I've played with an AI Askia(somewhere around 40-50 games, split between King and Emperor with a couple on Immortal) he's been doing an extremely good job whether on Warfare and expansion or being ahead in score.

One game that left a lasting impression on me, I remember having a (4v1) coop war against Songhai, where I bribed Byzantium and Babylon to go to war, and asked the Shoshone for a joint declaration. Fast forward around 30 turns later, not only are we not thrashing Songhai, Byzantium and Babylon has around -20 war score while the Shoshone and I were only slightly successful (below 10 war score). A few turns after that Byzantium and Babylon sues for peace, the Shoshone several turns after. While I'm not sure whether it's because of the Mandekalu cavalry or their UA, something's definitely wrong when half the world can't conquer a single civ, even pushing us back a bit. I know this is only a single game so it's hardly indicative of anything but I just thought it was completely bonkers.

Well, since you have read the rest of the thread, you know that you are far from alone here. On my front, what I've seen is that, almost each time Songhai is in a game, the entire game becomes about containing Songhai, often unsuccessfully because of how early and voluntary vassals can make a difficult situation become unbearable.

Among the various possible causes :

• the ability to have such a powerful all-around unique unit that early into the game
• the amphibious promotion combined with the "ignore terrain cost when next to rivers" is simply too much at this point of the game, where movement and terrain are very important (no fortress/citadel, still no true battlelines, weakness of ranged units)
  
• the big amount of production given by the early UB, perfect to overwhelm neighbours

I personally think it's mostly a combination of the last two : in the 4UC mod, Songhai has already seen the Mandekalu moved into the Medieval era, yet the civ stays oppressive very early (it's just icing on the cake in base VP).

I think removing the "ignore terrain cost when next to rivers" part of the UA (free amphibious already does the job well here), and maybe nerfing the UB1 a bit could alleviate a lot of the pressure.

 

[azum4roll]

It's not "ignore terrain cost when next to rivers", it's "treat riversides as roads". We can try a slight nerf to the former first.

 

[ridjack]

Songhai is still completely bonkers. I've actually disabled him at the moment because, as mentioned elsewhere, any game that contains Songhai becomes completely about containing Songhai. He consistently snowballs out of control and he's nearly impossible to successfully fight, even with another strong warmonger civ. Rivers are too plentiful and, frankly, a little too hard to keep track of, visually. Cultural borders can completely cover a river and make it nearly invisible. He really doesn't feel fun or fair to play against.

(Sidenote: @Recursive , can we have the title of this post changed to Songhai, to keep it consistent with literally every topic other in this forum?)

 

[Stalker0]

I think a few easy nerfs to the Mandekalu, remove the flanking bonus and "use enemy roads" ability from raider. That will weaken their combat and mobility a bit, but still leave them a strong anti-city horse unit that collects money from city attacks, so still pretty useful.

 

[ridjack]

I think a few easy nerfs to the Mandekalu, remove the flanking bonus and "use enemy roads" ability from raider. That will weaken their combat and mobility a bit, but still leave them a strong anti-city horse unit that collects money from city attacks, so still pretty useful.

Emphatically disagree. I'm using Pdan's tweaks mods, which moves Mandekalu from horseman to knight, and Songhai is still bursting out of the gates in the ancient and classical. By the time his cavalry come online, they're just solidifying his already-dominant position. Additionally, Songhai's offensive capabilities are not the only problem; trying to attack him is extremely difficult, sometimes nigh-impossible depending on the map.

Having played with Songhai in the past, I can also say he's even more ridiculous in human hands. The embarked damage makes coastal cities impossible to defend when Songhai is attacking; you just stack his Mandekalu under ships with as many "don't die" promotions as you can get and absolutely destroy coastal cites.

On top of all of this, his economy is literally never in danger. The city connections make sure he always has gold, isolation doesn't exist and you can't even pillage the city connection to try and slow him down.

Songhai is insane. I don't think light nerfs to his UU are going to do the job.

EDIT: To emphasize how dire I feel Songai's situation is, I never disable civs, no matter how overtuned I think they are. The only other times I've disabled civs in VP is Venice before his changes, when he was basically just gifting free land to whoever spawned nearby, and civs that had game-breaking bugs associated with them.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think light nerfs to his UU are going to do the job.
.

Is it that you don’t believe in nerfs to the UU, or you believe that additional nerfs are required as well