Askia

[Rean]

Agreed, I can't remember the last time Songhai did poorly in my games, nor have I seen any other AI conquer its enemies as consistently.

 

[tothePAIN]

In human hands, I dont think Songhai is heads and shoulders above other warmongers.

In AI hands, Songhai is straightforward enough that the AI uses Songhai really well.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

tothePAIN, I think it's as OP in human hands, because Mandekalu removes the main disadvantage of regular horsemen, i.e. not being that strong against cities, so you can spam them alone (without the usual need for C-bows/swordsmen/catapults) to capture cities in the ancient/classical era, snowballing early on. Coupled with the Mandekalu's promotion and the UA, you'll be getting crazy high amounts of gold early on that you can use either for even more military or for shoring up other areas that you temporarily neglected while focusing on building Mandekalus. Going for Authority/Monument/Shrine/Pyramids/Statue of Zeus/Mandekalus spam is a surefire way of snowballing on a non-isolated map.

 

[tothePAIN]

tothePAIN, I think it's as OP in human hands, because Mandekalu removes the main disadvantage of regular horsemen, i.e. not being that strong against cities, so you can spam them alone (without the usual need for C-bows/swordsmen/catapults) to capture cities in the ancient/classical era, snowballing early on. Coupled with the Mandekalu's promotion and the UA, you'll be getting crazy high amounts of gold early on that you can use either for even more military or for shoring up other areas that you temporarily neglected while focusing on building Mandekalus. Going for Authority/Monument/Shrine/Pyramids/Statue of Zeus/Mandekalus spam is a surefire way of snowballing on a non-isolated map.

I've played enough Songhai. I still stand by my position that Songhai isn't overpowered relative to other preeminent warmongers. The anti-warmonger snowball mechanics are strong enough to make the game challenging for even early snowballer. Also, some games, Songhai gets a lightning fast start and rivers and others it slows down into a grind. I'd put Sweden and the Zulu on par with Songhai.

 

[pineappledan]

I would be happy to take another look at the Tabya. In addition to the strong early snowball potential, the overlap with the floating garden and the longhouse is suboptimal.

Warmonger civ with movement and combat bonuses on a specific terrain type.
It has a unique building that unlocks at tier 2 of ancient era that gives +1production on that same tile type that they have movement bonuses on.
It has an early game unique unit that replaces a unit that is the first in its unit line and has a strategic resource requirement
What Civ am I describing?

 

[tothePAIN]

Longhouse gives +1 food to the tiles also though?

Also, Mohawk warriors have no resource requirement.

 

[pineappledan]

The base unit does, and the +1 food is an increased power from the base herbalist

 

[tothePAIN]

The base unit does, and the +1 food is an increased power from the base herbalist

Yes, but given those things, your description more aptly describes Songhai than the Iroquois. As is, your sentence can be read to say that the unique unit has a strategic resource requirement, which makes it Songhai. Not the base unit. Also in the absence of knowing the +1 food, Tabya is also the right answer over Longhouse.

Yes, both civs rely on terrain related bonuses but forests and rivers are sufficiently differentiated for then to still be meaningfully different civs.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Like ToThePain said, Songhai and Iroquois are quite different in my opinion, Tabya is a far more versatile UB (gives 10% production in any case, whereas Longhouses need forests/jungles to shine), Mohawks are quite inferior to Mandekalus, while the UAs are somewhat comparable, with the Songhai being more useful because crossing a river generally costs all movement points whereas forests/jungles only 2 or 3.

 

[pineappledan]

Either moving the Mandekalu back to knight or changing the +1 on TERRAIN_TYPE would be more than enough for me not to bring up the similarities anymore.

Their power spike timing on both their UBs and their UUs are almost the same, their largest early bonus comes from a big dump of production from a specific terrain type, and they both have a hybrid combat/movement advantage and free city connections on that terrain.

 

[CrazyG]

Mandekalu are the only horseman replacement and there are already 3 knights UUs so if the goal is uniqueness I'd say that's a pretty bad change

I find Songhai the more interesting of the two so I'd rather change Iroquois if we must change one of them.

 

[pineappledan]

The Songhai empire existed from 1464-1591
The Haudenosaunee confederacy existed from c. 1450-1867

It could be argued that both civs having ancient or classical UUs is silly. The Mohawk could be made a longsword

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Any civ with a unique horseman unit will almost certainly be too strong, it's just too powerful to spam stronger horsemen at the start of the game, so I'd be in favour of making Mandekalus a knight UU, I don't see any problem with another knight UU. The Songhai will remain very much unique due to its river bonus.

 

[pineappledan]

Any civ with a unique horseman unit will almost certainly be too strong, it's just too powerful to spam stronger horsemen at the start of the game, so I'd be in favour of making Mandekalus a knight UU, I don't see any problem with another knight UU. The Songhai will remain very much unique due to its river bonus.

is it that no Civ should have a unique horse, or just that the Songhai shouldn’t have a unique horse? Songhai give 2 unique combat promotions in addition to the bonuses on the Mandekalu. It’s possible that songhai’s combination of eliminating movement penalties and city penalties on an already fast unit that is strong for its era is a unique combination

 

[Melchizedek]

Should there be a poll asking whether most players think Songhai is OP?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Pineappledan, that's a good question! My gut feeling is that any civ with Mandekalus/a unique horseman would be OP, especially in human hands, even without other combat bonuses. For example if you give Songhai Germany's UA and UB, they'll still be extremely strong if they continue to spam 8+ Mandekalus early on as I've seen them do in my games. Since you're proficient in coding/modmoding, is there any chance you could test an aggressive civ having Mandekalus without other bonuses?

 

[Hinin]

Pineappledan, that's a good question! My gut feeling is that any civ with Mandekalus/a unique horseman would be OP, especially in human hands, even without other combat bonuses. For example if you give Songhai Germany's UA and UB, they'll still be extremely strong if they continue to spam 8+ Mandekalus early on as I've seen them do in my games. Since you're proficient in coding/modmoding, is there any chance you could test an aggressive civ having Mandekalus without other bonuses?

Well, it doesn't answer your question, but I can say, having played these last few weeks quite a lot of games (standard speed, Emperor) using 4UC, where the Mandekalu becomes a Knight replacement, that Songhai is still very often a powerful contender in the early game : even when using Progress, it seems to just roll all over nearby AIs (plus, with Askia's loyalty being 1 now, you simply cannot count on an early alliance to make sure he leaves you alone).
I think the culprit here is the Tabya : it gives so much production early on that other civs cannot compete with the civ's booming (a big amount of settlers early on) and then the amount of troops it brings.

After that, in the Medieval era, it gets its second power spike by unlocking its two UUs, and can terminate any weakened civ on the continent. The only solution I've found is to try to form a coalition against him early on and contain the pressure until your UCs arrive, but that's sometimes difficult when your neighbours are other warmongers who instinctively wants to gobble you up before thinking about Songhai.

The only two AIs I've found in this kind of repeated situation of early dominance in the current version are Authority/Progress Songhai and Authority Iroquois.

 

[Stalker0]

It’s possible that songhai’s combination of eliminating movement penalties and city penalties on an already fast unit that is strong for its era is a unique combination

Yeah, I think the main issue is the city attack. Regular horsemen are very powerful for the land battles but generally can't handle sieges except against weak cities, or in very open terrain where they can dash in and out as they will....but of course can only sustain a few rounds of attack before they have to heal back up.

Songhai's horses not suffering that penalty gives them a much strong city attack, so effectively the UU can do everything you need it to do early game.

 

[pineappledan]

Plus, since many cities are place on rivers, Songhai can do a lot of things with river movement that other civs can't, like rotate horses while attacking over a river, or simply retreating 1 tile so a garrisoned unit can't retaliate.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the problems with Mandekalu cavalry are one of these three

• Rivers are road means they have like 7 movement on common terrain. This is a lot stronger than the forest are roads things for Iroquois.
  
• No city penalty addresses the main weakness of horsemen
• Gold for hitting cities helps you recover from building 4 horsemen in a row on turns 35-50.

Also if mandekalu must become a knight I hope cataphracts can become horsemen again to avoid having 4 knight UUs