Aspiring Quartermaster

[sanabas]

OK, I realize that I will not be able to finish my Huge Regent Histographic game before the next update. Therefore, I finished up a Sid Spaceship Gauntlet game all the way to 2050AD. I could not research all the necessary techs for a spaceship, and I just missed losing by cultural 20k. Since it is Sid, the tiny map gives me a score of 3582. This will put me at about 50th place on the histographic list. Not very good, but it will have to do for now.

That leaves me just Huge Regent Diplomatic to finish the challenge. If I get a good diplomatic date, I project a Quartermaster average of around 3.6 putting me at about 18th place. If I can get the Huge Regent game submitted, I project an average around 2.3, which is almost top five. Only time will tell.

Nice work. Bad luck on the 20k game, it looks a decent date given that start. 1 NE would have probably helped a fair bit, especially as you look to have got Shake's nice and early. You should be able to beat 1230 for diplo reasonably easily.

Did you manage to finish your Sid game with a higher score than the AIs? And is finishing ahead of the AIs required for a valid histo game? I don't know if a histo win is required, or if lasting to 2050 is required. And I can't remember what the game regards as a histo win.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

According to the Hisotgraphic page on the HOF site: "All 2050AD wins submitted to the Hall of Fame are listed as Histographic victories." In my game, I had a much higher score than the AI civ remaining, and when time ran out on the game, it confirmed to me that I had won. What I assume is that surviving to 2050AD does not qualify for histographic unless you have the high score and thus win.

 

[Dianthus]

What I assume is that surviving to 2050AD does not qualify for histographic unless you have the high score and thus win.

That's correct, but what we were also saying is that 2050AD wins via Conquest/Domination/etc will only count as Histographic wins.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

On Warlord, kicking off a couple of golden ages can actually help you.

A) It gives a civ a kickstart on infrastructure, which might help them research some of the optional techs for you (chivaly, Military tradition, espionage, maybe sanitation)
B) It can provide a lot of cheap, easy to kill units for your elites to make MGL's.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

I eventually managed the victory in 1030AD with the Russians. I got Fission in, like, 800AD, but for some reason the Palace prebuild was FAR less than 1000 shields. More like 400 shields. Second, for some reason 4 votes out of 8 is not enough. I suppose the Ottomans can be forgiven for not voting for me the first time, because to them I did not exist. I did not meet them until after the first vote.

Although this is my first experience with a "Diplomatic" game, I really don't like them at all. I would have been better off crushing all those other civs save one which I was nice to and the larger one which I was not nice too. But by being diplomatic and letting them live, some decided not to vote while others sided with Xerxes! Oh, well. Perhaps I can find a better way next time.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

A way to get every one to vote is to figure out who your main rival is and declare war on them just before the vote, and sign in all the others in a military alliance.

 

[sanabas]

I eventually managed the victory in 1030AD with the Russians. I got Fission in, like, 800AD, but for some reason the Palace prebuild was FAR less than 1000 shields. More like 400 shields. Second, for some reason 4 votes out of 8 is not enough. I suppose the Ottomans can be forgiven for not voting for me the first time, because to them I did not exist. I did not meet them until after the first vote.

Palace prebuild is dependent on the number of cities you have. More cities you have, the more shields it takes to build a new palace, up to a max of 1000. And yeah, you need a majority of the votes to be elected.

Although this is my first experience with a "Diplomatic" game, I really don't like them at all. I would have been better off crushing all those other civs save one which I was nice to and the larger one which I was not nice too. But by being diplomatic and letting them live, some decided not to vote while others sided with Xerxes! Oh, well. Perhaps I can find a better way next time.

Get them angry with Xerxes. It's a contest between you and him, after all. So making them angry with him is as effective as making them happy with you.

 

[Marsden]

The AI never vote for a civ they are at war with, and they have eternally long memories of past transgressions by the human player. As long as you can keep half of the AIs happy with you, you can still abuse the others as long as you maintain your reputation. IOW, you can fight, but only with some and no breaking deals.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

Yeah, so I went to war with both the Persians and the Sumerians. Each were second place in either territory or population. I could easily convince the rest of the civs to ally against the Sumerians, but not all would do so against the Persians. I think many had MPPs. What ended up working was sending a boat over to the Ottomans on their island. That got me my 5th vote. If I do this again, who knows. Thanks for the tips.

As for right now, I am waiting for the July update. I am playing a Small, Monarch, Domination right now. Also, since I did not get very far in my Huge, Regent, Histographic game, I am thinking about changing to a harder difficulty level. My score for Regent would max at just over 30,000... I guess... based on the HOF tables. I just don't know if I should go for Sid right away. The top three are all Sid in the 64k-88k range. Here's the pattern:

Sid............. 88 k
C3C Deity.... 28 k
Demigod...... 55 k
Emperor...... 41 k
Monarch...... 41 k
Regent........ 28 k
Warlord....... 18 k
Chieftain..... 10 k

Obviously, C3C Deity has been neglected for optimal milking games. I also suppose that Moonsinger's and Kuningas's are the best milk jobs in the whole hall, as they use the x8 factor against eleven thousand. Is my logic correct, that if a Chieftain game had similar territory and population throughout the game as Moonsinger's top game did, the score would be 88553/8 = 11069? In that case, unless I am better than that at milking, I can expect Huge Histographic scores like this?

Sid............. 88 k
C3C Deity.... 77 k
Demigod...... 66 k
Emperor...... 55 k
Monarch...... 44 k
Regent........ 33 k
Warlord....... 22 k
Chieftain..... 11 k

Sid............. 88553 / 8 = 11069
C3C Deity.... 28743 / 7 = 04016
Demigod...... 55321 / 6 = 09220
Emperor...... 41732 / 5 = 08346
Monarch...... 41453 / 4 = 10363
Regent........ 28087 / 3 = 09362
Warlord....... 18410 / 2 = 09205
Chieftain..... 10434 / 1 = 10434

Kuningas, Drazek, and Moonsinger I know are Civ3 masters from GOTM, so their games at Monarch, Warlord, and Sid should be near optimal milking games. If such is true, then the only top milking game at each level that is not top notch is the C3C Deity top game. Even the Emperor game is pretty good.

Well, I know that I can win at Emperor, and I should be able to win at Sid with the right conditions, but I could easily spend hundreds of hours and lose. The other thing to consider is the score. The histographic list looks like this:

01 .... 88553 .... Sid .............. Moonsinger
02 .... 81609 .... Sid .............. Kuningas
03 .... 64296 .... Sid .............. SirPleb
04 .... 55321 .... PTW Deity .... Mazarin
05 .... 47716 .... PTW Deity .... Markstar
06 .... 43561 .... PTW Deity .... Bartleby
07 .... 41732 .... Emperor ....... Svar
08 .... 40967 .... Emperor ....... a space oddity
09 .... 40754 .... PTW Deity .... Karl_t_great
10 .... 38874 .... Emperor ....... Denniz
11 .... 38387 .... Emperor ....... fret
12 .... 38151 .... Emperor ....... Grey Fox
13 .... 37341 .... Monarch ...... Drazek

So let's say I am confident in a high score Histographic game at the level that I play. At Emperor, I am looking at 5-13th place. At Demigod, I am looking at 4-10th place even 3-10th place. At C3C Deity, I am looking at 3rd place, I guess. Now I want to look at the advanatages that the computer gets at each level. I know it is a huge difference after Emperor and then at Sid. Well, I'll look that up and make another post.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

All this according the Conquests map editor:

Level, Cost Factor, (Settlers,Workers), Extra Support Per City, Human Optimal Cities:
Sid............. 04 .... 3,5 .... 8 .... 50%
C3C Deity.... 06 .... 2,3 .... 4 .... 60%
Demigod...... 07 .... 2,3 .... 3 .... 70%
Emperor...... 08 .... 1,2 .... 2 .... 80%
Monarch...... 09 .... 1,1 .... 1 .... 85%
Regent........ 10 .... 1,1 .... 0 .... 90%
Warlord....... 12 .... 1,1 .... 0 .... 95%
Chieftain..... 20 .... 1,1 .... 0 .... 100%

I could not find info on tech rate differences.

I guess I should try for a high Emperor, so that I can improve my milking skills before the risk of wasting time on a Sid loss. First, I will probably win. Second, I can possibly get less than 2.0 for the histographic part of the Quartermaster's Challenge.

The next step after that would be C3C Deity, as it is not much as much of a jump as Sid.

 

[sanabas]

I could not find info on tech rate differences.

Cost factor covers food required to grow and shields required for builds. I think it also covers beakers required for techs, but it is the human beakers that are adjusted, while the AI's remain constant. So the AI still needs 40% of the beakers you do to research a tech on sid. I could be talking out my bum though.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

you are correct, sanabas. On Sid, the human needs more beakers per tech than on Chieftain. For the AI, it's the same (which is the same as the regent level for the human)

 

[Marsden]

Wow, thanks for posting the chart on AI costs. I know I've seen some of it before, but never so simple and straightforward as this. I have been thinking about a demigod attempt at the histographic, as my previous were monarch. I am nervous about starting, however, because I think Emperor is my highest level that I can handle. And I am loathe to invest many hours into a game only to lose.

Sorry I haven't said so sooner but good luck on you aspirations, I'm sure you'll attain them.

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

Thanks for the confidence in me. I hope that I can eventually get that first place spot. I have updated my projection (because I cannot wait for the update). I expect 3.33 at 16th place. That is, if no one does better than me in the next update in the categories that I submitted.

I am also contemplating another way to get the top spot that does not involve a Huge Sid Histographic better than Moonsinger's game. However, the approach is kinda devious, as it involves undercutting a player who has not submitted to the HOF since December 2005, trying to bring my score down and her score up. I have looked at Moonsinger's #1 games for the Quartermaster's Challenge, and some seem much easier to beat than her Histographic game. Her lower level domination games should be beatable. The rest look to be VERY HARD! Lot's of Sid and Deity games. All players tried to beat her Sid Spaceship game and only 2 games were even submitted. One came quote close. The other low difficulty game is the 1265 AD 20k game, which I will never beat. If I do get some first place games in those categories, will I awaken the sleeping giant?

 

[Tone]

I found the Histo analysis pretty interesting. In the end though it's all about score when it comes to QM status rather than getting a number one slot at a particular level, so it's really down to playing at the highest level you can milk well. (Not that I've ever managed to maintain interest to complete a Histo attempt apart from my OCC game!)

 

[killercane]

If I do get some first place games in those categories, will I awaken the sleeping giant?

You might, Moonsinger admitted that some of those dates could be improved, and with a little motivation I'm sure she would put us all to shame.

 

[sanabas]

You might, Moonsinger admitted that some of those dates could be improved, and with a little motivation I'm sure she would put us all to shame.

Yeah, there's not that many really strong dates in the HOF. Maybe 20%* of dates are extremely hard to beat, 20-30% extremely beatable with a bit of luck, 50% easily beatable and/or empty. I know plenty of my number 1 slots would be relatively easy to knock off. Moonsinger's 1200AD deity diplo game is an easy target, I know this because it's one of the 3 games I've played this month.

As for histo games, I am having another go at a deity histo game. The last two attempts saw me get fed up with killing off the last AI and milking, and are the 1 & 2 games in Huge Deity SS. We'll see if my attention span is longer this time. It's been a strange game so far, I managed to get the Republic sling on Deity, despite taking until 1050BC to research philosophy. And I seem to have run into a strange bug, the game isn't accessing the list of names. My MGL was called leader, and an attempt to found a new city gave the name prompt 'New' without a city name. Will be very, very annoying if that bug persists when I load it up again.


*These numbers are entirely made up without doing any research, the best way to get the stats you want.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

the 1265 20K win is very difficult to beat. She got:

1) A settler from a hut she popped on turn 4, so she had her 2nd town in 3600 AD.
2) SGL's to rush Pyramids, Oracle, ToA, Sistine Chapel *and* Shakespeares, plus a couple of others later.
3) Ivory very near by, so she could build SoZ quickly.

Only way to beat that, really, is to have similar SGL luck + get an early MGL for Heroic Epic. It can be beaten, but I've been trying for about 6 months and haven't gotten closer than 1355...

 

[killercane]

the 1265 20K win is very difficult to beat. She got:

1) A settler from a hut she popped on turn 4, so she had her 2nd town in 3600 AD.
2) SGL's to rush Pyramids, Oracle, ToA, Sistine Chapel *and* Shakespeares, plus a couple of others later.
3) Ivory very near by, so she could build SoZ quickly.

Only way to beat that, really, is to have similar SGL luck + get an early MGL for Heroic Epic. It can be beaten, but I've been trying for about 6 months and haven't gotten closer than 1355...

Try Russia. MS was researching construction at 1000 bc in that game. You can be researching Astronomy or whatever on your way to Shakes. You can get free cities easier as well.

All regular cultural improvements by 1000 AD including uni gives you 14 cpt. SGLs for Pyramids, Sistine, and GL gives you 30. Self build Colossus, SoZ, Oracle, and you have 41 cpt. Doubled will be 82 cpt, and you can build at least Shakes, HG, and something else if you get another sgl and be making approximately 100 cpt at 10 AD whereas Moonsinger was making 85 cpt at that point. And you will be ahead of the tech pace.

You can probably luck up and get HE in there too by pounding on the hopeless AI with your Ancient Cavalry. Thats my Russia theory anyways. Its hard to find 30 shield coastal capitals for these things unfortunately. You dont need 7 sgls, just 4 or 5 at the right time .

 

[SpiffyKeen7744]

I thought that I would give an update, as I have not been idle. It's just that I have been playing a Huge Emperor game. I am at 1120AD, I am well on my way to the domination limit. The Byzantines will fall in a few turns, Russia perhaps 10-20 turns after that. Neither will ever have muskets. The Greeks have muskets, but since they will be my last target, I can focus all my armies and troops on one civ. In this game, I isolated the Persians, (yes, they had iron) and I have been preparing them for a OCC game very soon. They might still be in the ancient age. I am researching Physics, while the rest of the world just got to Education and Gunpowder.

I have already made a bunch of mistakes that caused me way too much war weariness. I should have been in the Industrial age by now, and I should have been to Military Tradition much sooner than I was. But now things are moving quickly.

I have no idea how my score will end up, as I have nothing really to compare to. That means, I must check the HOF tables. In a_space_oddity's 41k game, the score was 4966 at 1000AD. In Svar's 42k game, the score was 7015 at 1000AD. It seems that I am behind the pace, but they were playing on what appears to be archipelago. Hopefully the higher domination limit makes a difference.