Assumption: DLC protected by technical means and consequences

[Commander Bello]

Edit: well I think a missunderstood your post. If your saying someone could dl the dlc, then basicly make a mod with the contents, then I guess they could? Not knowing how to mod, I'd say anythings possible. Maybe they have hidden markers in the dlc in certain parts, that if steam sees will alert them to give it more scrutiny, or to ask you to sign on if in offline mode. Your guess is as good as mine.

And that is exactly the reason why I am concerned.
I foresee all kind of technical and legal implications which actually would render the "unprecedented modding capability" obsolete, although from a pure technical point of view, and only taking vanilla Civ5, but not the DLC, into consideration, it might still be "true".

But the planned DLCs aren't a game withing a game. It's a few maps, scenarios, and civilization data. Aside from analyzing the file data or the file name, there's no way to know it is part of a particular DLC. Unless of course DLCs are somehow distinguished from mods, which would imply a limitation on mods, which we are assured there isn't in this regard. And analyzing the data is easily circumvented, because a slight change could easily alter the hash without changing the appearance.

Because DLC is going to be sold, there must be a way to "protect" it. Otherwise, it would be distributed like a wildfire.
So, picking some items of a given DLC and incorporating it into your mod (although you've paid for the DLC) seems to be "problematic", to say the least.

Another thing, even without programic protection, DLCs limit modders, who want to include the DLC content in their own mods. For instance, it is perfectly reasonable for a person to want to create a colonization scenario that includes Spain. But likely Spain will only be available though DLC. Creating one's own version of Spain would result in an inferior product, because it's hard to do quality leader models and model animations. So the scenario developer, and every one who wants a quality colonization scenario (including 2k, because the success of civ is tied to the quality of scenarios made with it) would want to include Spain from the DLC with the scenario. But now there is a question of is such a scenario allowed, and what restrictions exist on distributing it. Ideally, it would be allowed to distribute the scenario with DLC Spain to people who don't have that particular DLC. But unless this is explicitly allowed, it is disallowed, and the official mod hosting sites of steam/2k/fireaxis (if they will exist), as well as high visibility reputable sites like civfanatics may not host such mods.

Exactly.
Now, what about "unprecedented modding capability", if in effect we cannot make proper use of it?

 

[CMKMStephens]

Dragon Age is highly moddable and has DLC Items, Characters and Questlines.

Their mod platform and also the most popular private mod site don't allow illegal stuff, so it's not that easily accesible for John Doe. Those who find access to cracked mods have the knowledge to get a cracked game in the first place. Few will legally buy the game and make it illegal with cracked DLC.

--> A focus on modding doesn't exclude DLC.

Going on general atmosphere concerning DLC in many of the Dragon Age forums, this seems rather likely actually. Pretty much the same arguments being given here (Yay for Civ 5, nay for relatively expensive dlc / Buy the game, protest the DLC). The difference though is that Dragonage doesn't have Steam rooting through your computer to check to see if you've actually done it.

 

[Jamuka]

Going on general atmosphere concerning DLC in many of the Dragon Age forums, this seems rather likely actually. Pretty much the same arguments being given here (Yay for Civ 5, nay for relatively expensive dlc / Buy the game, protest the DLC). The difference though is that Dragonage doesn't have Steam rooting through your computer to check to see if you've actually done it.

But steam doesn't root through your computer. It doesn't check the files. It won't notice if you have certain mods.
For instance, it would be trivial to create a mod and name the civ as Babylon and name Nebuchadnezzar II as it's leader. You would give it the same UU/UB and civ traits, which would be trivial as well. The only challenging part would be the artwork, but that could be worked around or ignored. There is no way for steam or anything else to check for this - because it's NOT a cracked version of DLC. It is a duplicate of DLC. The only way to check is the discriminating human eye.

 

[CMKMStephens]

Hmmm. In that case it really comes back to the first questions posed in the thread, will the DLC have any sort of protection? If it doesn't as you say, then I expect the Mod-database thingie whatsit will probably have the DLC packs popping up on it as fast as Steam can delete them. Unless all mods have to gain prior approval, in which case they'll still be avaliable.

 

[Jamuka]

A co-worker proposes this theory to me:

The ONLY way to load a mod would be through the in-game mod network Firaxis discussed. Unlike Civ 4, there would be no mod folder to simply put mods in you download from fansites. You'll have to start up the game, browse for mods through their network, and then install mods through their network. Likewise, if you make a mod and want to distribute it, it would need to be through their network. Then Firaxis would be free to 'mod-nazi' and purge any mods they feel copy their DLC. The reason this works technologically is there would literally be no way to install a mod on your own. If the game is to load up anything besides the default files it would need to be instructed to do so, in-game.
Just a theory.

 

[Souron]

A co-worker proposes this theory to me:

The ONLY way to load a mod would be through the in-game mod network Firaxis discussed. Unlike Civ 4, there would be no mod folder to simply put mods in you download from fansites. You'll have to start up the game, browse for mods through their network, and then install mods through their network. Likewise, if you make a mod and want to distribute it, it would need to be through their network. Then Firaxis would be free to 'mod-nazi' and purge any mods they feel copy their DLC. The reason this works technologically is there would literally be no way to install a mod on your own. If the game is to load up anything besides the default files it would need to be instructed to do so, in-game.
Just a theory.

How would you develop a mod in the first place then?

 

[Disgustipated]

A co-worker proposes this theory to me:

The ONLY way to load a mod would be through the in-game mod network Firaxis discussed. Unlike Civ 4, there would be no mod folder to simply put mods in you download from fansites. You'll have to start up the game, browse for mods through their network, and then install mods through their network. Likewise, if you make a mod and want to distribute it, it would need to be through their network. Then Firaxis would be free to 'mod-nazi' and purge any mods they feel copy their DLC. The reason this works technologically is there would literally be no way to install a mod on your own. If the game is to load up anything besides the default files it would need to be instructed to do so, in-game.
Just a theory.

This is what scares me. I don't like any impediment on the free flow of information. Even if it's bad stuff like nazis in the game. Or nude female leaders (not that I'd download such a mod ). I don't want Firaxis to determine what mods I'm able to have on a game I purchase.

 

[mjs0]

A co-worker proposes this theory to me:

The ONLY way to load a mod would be through the in-game mod network Firaxis discussed. Unlike Civ 4, there would be no mod folder to simply put mods in you download from fansites. You'll have to start up the game, browse for mods through their network, and then install mods through their network. Likewise, if you make a mod and want to distribute it, it would need to be through their network. Then Firaxis would be free to 'mod-nazi' and purge any mods they feel copy their DLC. The reason this works technologically is there would literally be no way to install a mod on your own. If the game is to load up anything besides the default files it would need to be instructed to do so, in-game.
Just a theory.

It has been officially stated (if I can find a link I'll add it later) that you will still be able to download and install mods from fan sites without using the in-game mod browser.

Got it! On page2 of the Eurogamer preview:

Former modder Jon Schafer is unable to expand on any moderation policies for now, but is keen to point out that this is an additional service. You'll still be able to do everything the old way if you pop omnidirectional boners when manually extracting zip files.

 

[YoHo]

Finally some arguments that actually hold weight in my mind.

I was never a big modder in Civ4. Heck, it wasn't till yesterday that I learned about AoDII for Colonization.
I always wanted mods for Fantasy worlds and was always disappointed with the options available.

But there are some really high quality mods and modders out there. It seems to me that the best of breed aren't going to have a problem with this new system. Its the small time modders that are most likely to suffer.


Having said that, I have a hard time believing that Firaxis has made it impossible to create your own local mods that you don't publish and if you can do that, you should be able to load other mods outside the game interface.

 

[Commander Bello]

A co-worker proposes this theory to me:

The ONLY way to load a mod would be through the in-game mod network Firaxis discussed. Unlike Civ 4, there would be no mod folder to simply put mods in you download from fansites. You'll have to start up the game, browse for mods through their network, and then install mods through their network. Likewise, if you make a mod and want to distribute it, it would need to be through their network. Then Firaxis would be free to 'mod-nazi' and purge any mods they feel copy their DLC. The reason this works technologically is there would literally be no way to install a mod on your own. If the game is to load up anything besides the default files it would need to be instructed to do so, in-game.
Just a theory.

Actually, from the very first moment I had the fear that the mod-browser could be more a means to control mods than a means to ease the "effort" to install them, especially considering the need to protect sold DLC from copying.

Yet, the below question is valid, too.

How would you develop a mod in the first place then?

It is beyond my imagination that Big Brother (Firaxis + 2k + Steam) would completely abolish the option to create mods. If they would do, 10 minutes later the fire brigade would have to come.

What nevertheless I assume is that mods to be downloaded via the mod-browser need some kind of approval process, before being "released". This of course would be done via Steam servers.
Therefore, I assume that the current process of applying mods to your system (= downloading them from CivFanatics) will still be available, yet not via mod-browser.

Which influence this will have on where which mod will be available future will tell.

 

[Jamuka]

It has been officially stated (if I can find a link I'll add it later) that you will still be able to download and install mods from fan sites without using the in-game mod browser.

Well then, I'm left clueless. Maybe 2K is forcing DLC on Firaxis, and Firaxis just doesn't care that DLC will be easily replicated in mods? Seems unlikely. If that's true though, I imagine we have Jon Schafer to thank.

 

[mjs0]

Is it possible that each DLC package requires a dual purpose code plug-in (a DLL I guess) that both confirms its presence to the game and dynamically assembles encrypted assets of the DLC in memory at runtime?
The code plug-in could then be protected by normal Steam licensing and the assets of the DLC would never be in a usable state on disc.

 

[Souron]

Is it possible that each DLC package requires a dual purpose code plug-in (a DLL I guess) that both confirms its presence to the game and dynamically assembles encrypted assets of the DLC in memory at runtime?
The code plug-in could then be protected by normal Steam licensing and the assets of the DLC would never be in a usable state on disc.

That's possible, but it wouldn't be hard to get around. The resources would still be available on the disk, they'd just be encrypted. And the decryption algorithm would be built into civ, or perhaps downloaded with the DLC.

 

[Mercade]

Is it possible that each DLC package requires a dual purpose code plug-in (a DLL I guess) that both confirms its presence to the game and dynamically assembles encrypted assets of the DLC in memory at runtime?
The code plug-in could then be protected by normal Steam licensing and the assets of the DLC would never be in a usable state on disc.

Another way is to use CRC's on the binary (art) files to identify them as part of official DLC and thus disallow them as non-licensed mods. Of course also something that can be circumvented, like just about any form of protection can be dodged.

In the end, I don't want any illegal stuff on my computer, and many people fortunately feel the same way. To those who feel otherwise, good luck to them and hopefully your computer won't explode in your face.

 

[Commander Bello]

Is it possible that each DLC package requires a dual purpose code plug-in (a DLL I guess) that both confirms its presence to the game and dynamically assembles encrypted assets of the DLC in memory at runtime?
The code plug-in could then be protected by normal Steam licensing and the assets of the DLC would never be in a usable state on disc.

That would literally exclude DLC from any modification, wouldn't it?
Even if I would try to mod just for my own purposes, without intending to ever release it to somebody else...

 

[mjs0]

That's possible, but it wouldn't be hard to get around. The resources would still be available on the disk, they'd just be encrypted. And the decryption algorithm would be built into civ, or perhaps downloaded with the DLC.

I could go a step further and suggest that since they built their own graphics engine maybe it supports two incompatible graphics formats one for standard content which will be used by modders and one for use by DLC.

Unlikely I guess, but still a possible answer.