Atlantis: What is it all about?

Was Atlantis real?


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They happened around the same time, the YD ended (warmed very fast) about the time Atlantis was submerged and Gobekli Tepe was built. Now the onset of the YD is close to Sitchin's date for the Flood 13000 bp but I heard a Tlingit elder date their Flood to 14 kya, the older date is closer to a rapid burst in sea rise. Atlantis was in the northern hemisphere at sea level.

If the Sphinx was a symbolic representation of the time of the Flood then maybe the human head on the lion's body indicates the head of Virgo and the body of Leo forming the cusp of the constellations (like how we're on the cusp of Pisces to Aquarius). This is supported by the emphasis on bull worship and the transition to Aries the Ram in the time of Moses and why Jesus was the sacrificial lamb who became a fisher of men.

These cusps and transitory periods are not well-defined, even in the Bible we see Moses getting angry upon finding the people making their golden calf - the age of Taurus had ended. So the cusp of Virgo to Leo could be several centuries ranging on either side of 11000-10800 bc.
Younger Dryas:
Other features include the following:
Effects on agriculture[edit]
The Younger Dryas is often linked to the Neolithic Revolution, the adoption of agriculture in the Levant.[91][92] The cold and dry Younger Dryas arguably lowered the carrying capacity of the area and forced the sedentary early Natufian population into a more mobile subsistence pattern. Further climatic deterioration is thought to have brought about cereal cultivation. While relative consensus exists regarding the role of the Younger Dryas in the changing subsistence patterns during the Natufian, its connection to the beginning of agriculture at the end of the period is still being debated.
Sea level[edit]
Based upon solid geological evidence, consisting largely of the analysis of numerous deep cores from coral reefs, variations in the rates of sea level rise have been reconstructed for the postglacial period. For the early part of the sea level rise that is associated with deglaciation, three major periods of accelerated sea level rise, called meltwater pulses, occurred. They are commonly called
  • meltwater pulse 1A0 for the pulse between 19,000~19,500 calibrated years ago;
  • meltwater pulse 1A for the pulse between 14,600~14,300 calibrated years ago;
  • meltwater pulse 1B for the pulse between 11,400~11,100 calibrated years ago. [This is the sea rise at the end of the YD; Noah's flood!]
The Younger Dryas occurred after meltwater pulse 1A, a 13.5 m rise over about 290 years, centered at about 14,200 calibrated years ago, and before meltwater pulse 1B, a 7.5 m rise over about 160 years, centered at about 11,000 calibrated years ago.[95][96][97] Finally, not only did the Younger Dryas postdate both all of meltwater pulse 1A and predate all of meltwater pulse 1B, it was a period of significantly-reduced rate of sea level rise relative to the periods of time immediately before and after it.

Meltwater pulse 1B

Meltwater pulse 1B (MWP1b) is the name used by Quaternary geologists, paleoclimatologists, and oceanographers for a period of either rapid or just accelerated post-glacial sea level rise that some hypothesize to have occurred between 11,500 and 11,200 years ago at the beginning of the Holocene and after the end of the Younger Dryas.[1] Meltwater pulse 1B is also known as catastrophic rise event 2 (CRE2) in the Caribbean Sea.[2]

Other named, postglacial meltwater pulses are known most commonly as meltwater pulse 1A0 (meltwaterpulse19ka), meltwater pulse 1A, meltwater pulse 1C, meltwater pulse 1D, and meltwater pulse 2. It and these other periods of proposed rapid sea level rise are known as meltwater pulses because the inferred cause of them was the rapid release of meltwater into the oceans from the collapse of continental ice sheets.[1]

Sea level
There is considerable unresolved disagreement over the significance, timing, magnitude, and even existence of meltwater pulse 1B. It was first recognized by Fairbanks in his coral reef studies in Barbados. From the analysis of data from cores of coral reefs surrounding Barbados, he concluded that during meltwater pulse 1B, sea level rose 28 meters (92 ft) in about 500 years about 11,300 calendar years ago.[3]

However, in 1996 and 2010, Bard and others published detailed analysis of data from cores from coral reefs surrounding Tahiti. They concluded that meltwater pulse 1B was, at best, just an acceleration of sea level rise at about 11,300 calendar years ago and it was, at worst, not statistically different from a constant rate sea level rise between 11,500 and 10,200 calendar years ago. They argued that meltwater pulse 1B was certainly not an abrupt jump in sea level, which they would consider to be a meltwater pulse. They argue that the 28 meters (92 ft) rise in sea level estimated by Fairbanks from cores is an artifact created by differential tectonic uplift between different sides of a tectonic structure lying between the two Barbados cores used to identify meltwater pulse 1B and calculate its magnitude.[4][5]

Other differing estimates about the magnitude of meltwater pulse 1B have been published. In 2010, Standford and others found it to be "robustly expressed" as a multi-millennial interval of enhanced rates of sea-level rise between 11,500 and 8,800 calendar years ago with peak rates of rise of up to 25 mm/yr.[6] In 2004, Liu and Milliman reexamined the original data from Barbados and Tahiti and reconsidered the mechanics and sedimentology of reef drowning by sea level rise. They concluded that meltwater pulse 1B occurred between 11,500 and 11,200 calendar years ago, a 300-calendar year interval, during which sea level rose 13 meters (43 ft) from −58 meters (−190 ft) to −45 meters (−148 ft), giving a mean annual rate of around 40mm/yr[7] Other studies have revised the estimated magnitude of meltwater pulse 1B downward to between 7.5 meters (25 ft) and less than 6 meters (20 ft).[2][8]

Source(s) of meltwater pulse 1B
Given the disagreement over its timing, magnitude, and even existence, it has been very difficult to constrain the source of meltwater pulse 1B. In his modeling of global glacial isostatic adjustment, Peltier assumed that the predominant source for MWP-1B was the Antarctic Ice Sheet. However, no justification for this assumption is provided in his papers.[9][10] In addition, Leventer and others argue that the timing of deglaciation in eastern Antarctica roughly coincides with the onset of meltwater pulse 1B and the Antarctic Ice Sheet is a likely source.[11] Finally, McKay and others suggested that recession of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet may have supplied the meltwater needed to the start meltwater pulse 1B.[12]

However, later studies involving the surface exposure dating of glacial erratics, nunataks, and other formerly glaciated exposures using cosmogenic dating contradicted the above arguments and assumptions.[13] These studies tentatively concluded that the actual amount of thinning of the East Antarctic Ice Sheet is too small 50 to 200 meters (160 to 660 ft) and likely too gradual and too late to have contributed any significant amount of meltwater to meltwater pulse 1B. They also concluded that the ice sheet retreat and thinning accelerated for the West Antarctic Ice Sheet only after 7,000 calendar years ago.[13] Although other researchers have concluded that the abrupt decay of the Laurentide Ice Sheet might have been sufficient to have been responsible for meltwater pulse 1B, its sources remain an unresolved mystery.[13] For example, recent research in West Antarctica found that sufficient deglaciation contemporaneous with meltwater pulse 1B occurred to readily explain this rapid period of global sea level rise.
So it looks like there was no massive sudden rise in sea levels that fits with either Noah or Atlantis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltwater_pulse_1B
 
A continent cant prevent rising seas in the Pacific and Atlantic and a cometary breakup eg could hit different places. I've read about 3 locations being considered by the Younger Dryas Impact Group, 2 small craters off the northern coast of Australia, a larger crater in the Indian Ocean, and a smaller one in Greenland. Flood myths are typically linked with celestial events.
The impact theory for the onset of the YD is not the prominent one. You need to do better research.
 
From Gobekli Tepe to the Younger Dryas and the climate change/sea rise record we know post ice age events dwarfed a volcano blowing up even if it did wreck the Minoan north coast.
You actually don't "know" any of that. From what we do know it seems likely that:
  • The YD may have short circuited agriculture in the Middle East and delayed it adoption
  • There was no massive sea level rise or sudden flooding
  • The Thera eruption would have had a much bigger impact on the regional world around it than any events thousands of years prior
 
Anybody looking at the orbital distances of the planets would have seen the 2:1 ratio before inventing a formula based on the Earth's orbit. Are you saying the formula was invented without anyone noticing the 2:1 ratio?

I'm saying that if you want to claim that the "2:1 ratio" was noticed first, you need to support that claim with evidence. Given that everyone in the seventeenth century believed that the solar system was created exactly as it currently is, it seems unlikely that anyone would have entertained the notion that the Earth had been moved from one orbit to another. So if you think they did, you need to point to the evidence.

Your claim that "anybody looking at the orbital distances of the planets would have seen the 2:1 ratio" is a classic case of historical projection. You're assuming that because you see this alleged ratio, anybody in the past would have done so. But people in the past didn't think like that.

This is part and parcel of your even more fundamental assumption, which is that the alleged fact that some planets show a 2:1 ratio is evidence that all of them (apart from the more distant ones, for some reason that I still don't understand) originally did so. You haven't given any reason at all to suppose that the "2:1" law is the correct one and that Bode's Law is not correct, even though the latter fits the data better than the former does. You're just assuming that the pattern you prefer is the "true" pattern.

What experts? The criticisms of Velikovsky I've seen were about his cosmology.

It's an interesting contrast: where Velikovsky is denounced by most scientists, he is pretty much completely ignored by almost all ancient historians. They're just not interested. Searching for references to Velikovsky in scholarly journals in this general field throws up almost nothing. I suppose this is because Velikovsky proposed a timeline of ancient events that contradicts the generally accepted one; it's also because Velikovsky made very naive assumptions about his sources (e.g. events such as the Exodus actually happened) which serious historians wouldn't normally bother entertaining.
 
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OH. COME. ON.

You just went into a spiel about how all these stories are supposedly connected... using GREEK mythology. So I asked about whether the Egyptian myths and the Greek myths were the same. You say no. So why did you carry on as if they were?

You asked if they had the same myths about the Zodiac, I never said they did. I said we find a common theme in creation mythology. Sky mythology (timekeeping, astrology etc) varies based on latitude and connections to other people. The Greeks got much of their cosmology from Indo-Europeans & Mesopotamians but the Egyptian influence existed too. Democritus said there are planets we cant see after traveling around Chaldea and Egypt learning from their scholars and Solon got the Atlantis myth from Egypt.

So it looks like there was no massive sudden rise in sea levels that fits with either Noah or Atlantis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meltwater_pulse_1B

You actually don't "know" any of that. From what we do know it seems likely that:
  • The YD may have short circuited agriculture in the Middle East and delayed it adoption
  • There was no massive sea level rise or sudden flooding
  • The Thera eruption would have had a much bigger impact on the regional world around it than any events thousands of years prior

I shouldn't be arguing Atlantis was the victim of sea rise

"But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."

That sounds like liquefaction and Atlantis is now mostly under mud

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...spot-ancient-ruins-flooded-Spanish-coast.html

and water... Both quakes and flooding could involve a tsunami, SW Spain and Portugal do get hit by both.

As for the meltwater pulses, mp1a aligns with the Tlingit date for the flood 14000 bp. Sitchin dates the flood to 13000 bp which roughly coincides with the onset of the YD and mp1b occurs with the post YD warming 11600 bp - assuming the story says 9000 before Solon - if its 9000 years before Plato that would 11360 bp. Thera and the Minoans are not Atlantis, Knossos didn't sink and the Minoans survived the eruption and Thera was not a military power dominating the Mediterranean from beyond the pillars of Hercules.

The nature of the flood is another matter, the YD Impact Group researched flood myths to see what phenomenon was reported, celestial fireworks, quakes, waves, deluges of rain, etc.

I'm saying that if you want to claim that the "2:1 ratio" was noticed first, you need to support that claim with evidence. Given that everyone in the seventeenth century believed that the solar system was created exactly as it currently is, it seems unlikely that anyone would have entertained the notion that the Earth had been moved from one orbit to another. So if you think they did, you need to point to the evidence.

Your claim that "anybody looking at the orbital distances of the planets would have seen the 2:1 ratio" is a classic case of historical projection. You're assuming that because you see this alleged ratio, anybody in the past would have done so. But people in the past didn't think like that.

This is part and parcel of your even more fundamental assumption, which is that the alleged fact that some planets show a 2:1 ratio is evidence that all of them (apart from the more distant ones, for some reason that I still don't understand) originally did so. You haven't given any reason at all to suppose that the "2:1" law is the correct one and that Bode's Law is not correct, even though the latter fits the data better than the former does. You're just assuming that the pattern you prefer is the "true" pattern.

It's an interesting contrast: where Velikovsky is denounced by most scientists, he is pretty much completely ignored by almost all ancient historians. They're just not interested. Searching for references to Velikovsky in scholarly journals in this general field throws up almost nothing. I suppose this is because Velikovsky proposed a timeline of ancient events that contradicts the generally accepted one; it's also because Velikovsky made very naive assumptions about his sources (e.g. events such as the Exodus actually happened) which serious historians wouldn't normally bother entertaining.

I didn't say the observers thought the Earth formed at the asteroid belt, I am saying anyone looking at the orbital distances of the planets would notice the 2:1 ratio. And they would notice the Earth doesn't fit, hence the formula based on Earth's current distance. Why wouldn't the people calculating the orbital distances of the planets not see the 2:1 ratio? I quoted the wiki article:

The Titius–Bode law (sometimes termed just Bode's law) is a formulaic prediction of spacing between planets in any given solar system. The formula suggests that, extending outward, each planet should be approximately twice as far from the Sun as the one before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titiu...ius–Bode law (sometimes,Sun as the one before.

It may be a coincidental snapshot of evolving planetary orbits but wiki identified the 2:1 ratio, not me, but it obviously exists. I dont know why it matters or why I need evidence, the 2:1 ratio stands out on its own. Why wouldn't people notice it? They would, and then they'd notice the Earth is out of place and thats why they came up with a formula to account for the Earth being here.
 
You asked if they had the same myths about the Zodiac, I never said they did. I said we find a common theme in creation mythology. Sky mythology (timekeeping, astrology etc) varies based on latitude and connections to other people. The Greeks got much of their cosmology from Indo-Europeans & Mesopotamians but the Egyptian influence existed too. Democritus said there are planets we cant see after traveling around Chaldea and Egypt learning from their scholars and Solon got the Atlantis myth from Egypt.
You went into a spiel about multiple events in time and space and only used Greek myths to account for ALL of them. And now - as usual - you're moving the goalposts. Again.

Source for your Democritus claim, please.

I shouldn't be arguing Atlantis was the victim of sea rise
At least this much is correct.
 
I didn't say the observers thought the Earth formed at the asteroid belt, I am saying anyone looking at the orbital distances of the planets would notice the 2:1 ratio. And they would notice the Earth doesn't fit, hence the formula based on Earth's current distance. Why wouldn't the people calculating the orbital distances of the planets not see the 2:1 ratio?

They wouldn't notice it because the planets don't fit that pattern, because Earth is not twice the distance of Venus, Mars is not twice the distance of Earth, and Jupiter is not twice the distance of Mars. It's not the case that there is a general rule that all the planets apart from Earth fit. Most of them don't fit it.

And when it comes to history, you can't ask rhetorical questions like "why wouldn't they notice it?" because that makes the assumption that people of the past thought the same way you do. You have to rely on evidence. And if the evidence doesn't indicate that they thought this, then you're not entitled to assume that they did. I think it's crazy that nobody before the nineteenth century realised that evolution works by natural selection but that's because I live in a post-Darwin world where I've been brought up to interpret the natural world in that way. It doesn't entitle me to assume that people did think this before the nineteenth century but nobody happened to write it down.

I quoted the wiki article:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titius–Bode_law#:~:text=The Titius–Bode law (sometimes,Sun as the one before.

It may be a coincidental snapshot of evolving planetary orbits but wiki identified the 2:1 ratio, not me, but it obviously exists. I dont know why it matters or why I need evidence, the 2:1 ratio stands out on its own. Why wouldn't people notice it? They would, and then they'd notice the Earth is out of place and thats why they came up with a formula to account for the Earth being here.

Wiki is referring to the Titius-Bode Law, which as we've established is not the same thing as the 2:1 ratio that you're talking about. The Earth - in its current position - fits the Titius-Bode Law. That is what the early modern astronomers noticed, not the more exacting 2:1 ratio that you're talking about and which the Earth, Mars, and Jupiter do not fit.
 
Just gonna leave this here:

 
You went into a spiel about multiple events in time and space and only used Greek myths to account for ALL of them. And now - as usual - you're moving the goalposts. Again.

Source for your Democritus claim, please.

At least this much is correct.

Can you quote me so I know what you're talking about? Here's a source for Democritus, but I do believe Velikovsky cited him.

https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/for-how-long-has-humankind-contemplated-aliens/

"Democritus thought that there was an infinite supply of atoms, so he reasoned that there must be an infinite number of worlds.”

They wouldn't notice it because the planets don't fit that pattern, because Earth is not twice the distance of Venus, Mars is not twice the distance of Earth, and Jupiter is not twice the distance of Mars. It's not the case that there is a general rule that all the planets apart from Earth fit. Most of them don't fit it.

Venus is 2x Mercury, Mars is 2x Venus, Jupiter is 4x Mars (not quite, but close), and Saturn is 2x Jupiter. Researchers began looking for planets between Mars and Jupiter and 2x Saturn. That led to the discovery of Uranus and Ceres (asteroid belt). The Earth didn't fit the pattern and thats why we got the TB formula. The other planets were fine with the 2:1 ratio, Earth is the one out of place.

And when it comes to history, you can't ask rhetorical questions like "why wouldn't they notice it?" because that makes the assumption that people of the past thought the same way you do. You have to rely on evidence. And if the evidence doesn't indicate that they thought this, then you're not entitled to assume that they did. I think it's crazy that nobody before the nineteenth century realised that evolution works by natural selection but that's because I live in a post-Darwin world where I've been brought up to interpret the natural world in that way. It doesn't entitle me to assume that people did think this before the nineteenth century but nobody happened to write it down.

I dont know that it wasn't written down, I'm not going to read thru everything they did write looking for one of them to say they noticed a 2:1 ratio in the orbital distances of some of the planets.

Wiki is referring to the Titius-Bode Law, which as we've established is not the same thing as the 2:1 ratio that you're talking about. The Earth - in its current position - fits the Titius-Bode Law. That is what the early modern astronomers noticed, not the more exacting 2:1 ratio that you're talking about and which the Earth, Mars, and Jupiter do not fit.

Correct, but it was wiki who described the 2:1 ratio, not me.

"The formula suggests that, extending outward, each planet should be approximately twice as far from the Sun as the one before."

We dont need TB if the Earth formed at the asteroid belt, it was created to account for the Earth here instead. Now if you want to believe these mathematicians calculating the orbital distances of the planets didn't notice the 2:1 ratio staring them in the face go right ahead but I think my assumption is safe.
 
When or by whom were the first accurate measurements of planetary distances made?
 
Evidence found for the Welsh Atlantis

The Welsh legend of Cantre'r Gwaelod, a lost land sunken below Cardigan Bay, has persisted for almost a millennium.​
First written about in the mid-13th Century, it is likely the myths and legends surrounding the Welsh Atlantis date from long before that.​
Yet there has never been any definitive geographical evidence for the mythical land… until now, perhaps.​
A medieval map has been uncovered which depicts two islands off the Ceredigion coast - now lost to history.​
Along with David Willis, Jesus Professor of Celtic at the University of Oxford, Simon Haslett, honorary professor of physical geography at Swansea University have presented evidence of two islands depicted on a medieval map, each about a quarter the size of Anglesey.​
One island is offshore between Aberystwyth and Aberdyfi and the other further north towards Barmouth, Gwynedd.​
Prof Haslett explained that the two islands are clearly marked on the Gough Map, the earliest surviving complete map of the British Isles, dating from as early as the mid-13th Century.​
"The Gough Map is extraordinarily accurate considering the surveying tools they would have had at their disposal at that time," he said.​
"The two islands are clearly marked and may corroborate contemporary accounts of a lost land mentioned in the Black Book of Carmarthen."​
The Gough Map may have its origins around 1280, shortly before that, around 1250, you have the Black Book of Carmarthen. It describes Gwyddno Garanhir's country called Maes Gwyddno (Gwyddno's Field). It was flooded because the well-keeper (Mererid) left the cover off the well.​
Drawing upon previous surveys of the bay and understanding of the advance and retreat of glaciers and silt since the last ice age about 10,000 years ago, Profs Haslett and Willis were able to suggest how the islands may have come into existence and then disappeared again.​
Prof Haslett also suggested it may explain some of the local folklore.​
He said: "I think the evidence for the islands, and possibly therefore the legends connected with them, is in two strands.​
"Firstly, coordinates recorded by the Roman cartographer Ptolemy suggest that the coastline at the time may have been some 13km (8 miles) further west than it is today.​
"And, secondly, the evidence presented by the Gough Map for the existence of two islands in Cardigan Bay."​

 
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