Attack and Defense VS 1 Number

Unless of course, like in reality, that Infantry unit actually represents an Infantry Division, complete with anti-tank guns, bazookas/panzershreks, panzerfausts and the like.

Why would you think that an Infantry unit would be armed onyl with rifles and grenades?

Even an infantry *company* IRL has a bunch of heavy weapons.

An Anti-Tank unit is just a division more heavily focused on AT weapons; it has more AT guns, fewer machine guns and snipers and mortars.


There are plenty of ww2 examples of infantry heavily in heavily fortified positions, with their AT-guns and other weapons, annihilating incoming armor.

i see your point in real life. But i see no anti tank guns sitting behind the enemies infantry in civ, i see a few men with rifles. And that is how i expect them to act.

Why don't we take it one step farther an just build units called Army, which consists of all the units your army could possibly want and slap it into the enemies army units until you have a victor.

although i can see your point about infantry i don't remember any anti tank guns sitting behind the riflemen in cities in civ 4 and yet they seem to be able to take tanks out with ease as well.

I'd like my tanks to represent actual tanks not the number 24.
 
But i see no anti tank guns sitting behind the enemies infantry in civ, i see a few men with rifles. And that is how i expect them to act.

Then I would suggest that you are interpreting their icon graphic too literally.

That isn't a picture of the unit; its an icon.

Why don't we take it one step farther an just build units called Army, which consists of all the units your army could possibly want and slap it into the enemies army units until you have a victor.

Because that would be boring. We need enough unit range so that there are meaningful differences in roles; infantry are cheap but slow, and good at defending cities.
Tanks are more mobile and high strength, but more expensive and require oil.
Artillery are good for ranged bombardment, but are vulnerable up close.
etc.
So we want *some* variation, but we don't need to specifically model every different kind of gun, halftrack, truck, tank, assault gun, howitzer and mortar.

although i can see your point about infantry i don't remember any anti tank guns sitting behind the riflemen in cities in civ 4 and yet they seem to be able to take tanks out with ease as well
Tanks should be weak at attacking cities. Their advantages are their range and their mobility, both of which are removed in urban warfare.

If you send an armor division charging at a well-dug-in infantry division fortified in a city, then yeah, you should expect to see your tanks blown up. Thats what happens in real life. You should have to use artillery and aircraft to weaken the defenders first.

We don't need to make every unit have only a narrow purpose.

With 1upt, it will be even more important for units to retain some "generalist" aspects.

We want to allow for some specialization, but not too much; if infantry were just universally worse than tanks, why would you ever build infantry?

Tanks *do* act differently than infantry, particularly because of their mobility. I think this will show up even more in Civ5, where we no longer need to move our entire army along at a single speed.
We have the potential to be able to use tanks for nasty flanking attacks, or to punch though a line and divide it.
 
Well to keep it simple, transparent and fun.

I'd say

1 Strength value
With modifiers

and Hitpoints

AND only 1 "Round" of combat per turn


So Strength 10 unit v. Strength 20 unit

Result at end of turn:
Strength 10 unit loses 40-60 hp,
Strength 20 unit loses 20-30 hp

Strength doesn't change... but if the hp=0 the unit is dead
 
AND only 1 "Round" of combat per turn


So Strength 10 unit v. Strength 20 unit

Result at end of turn:
Strength 10 unit loses 40-60 hp,
Strength 20 unit loses 20-30 hp

I would be surprised if it worked like this; this would imply that weak units still always damaged strong units, no matter how large the difference in strength.
I think its more likely that, like in Civ2-4, we will still have "rounds" of combat (but a finite number of rounds), with each unit having a probability of winning the round and damaging the enemy.

So if your strength is high enough, you have a high probability of emerging unscathed.
 
Either this way or use resistance to damage values, even if they didn't want to confuse everyone with missile,melee and explosive. They could simply have:


Health, Attack, Defence(/Resistance/Armour)

with attack representing damage output and defence representing damage resisitance, not like in civ 3 where it represented defensive and attack power.
 
Health, Attack, Defence(/Resistance/Armour)

with attack representing damage output and defence representing damage resisitance, not like in civ 3 where it represented defensive and attack power.

What is the design advantage from doing so?
The only reason to do this is if you are going to have some high attack/low defense units and some high defense/low attack units, and if these actually performed differently in combat.

1. Classification
What units would have high defense but low attack? I really can't think of any likely candidates.
"Defensive" units don't meet this criteria; a machinegun is a defensive weapon, but still deals out very high damage when it is defending.
[And how would this behave differently from just giving these units higher hit points?]

The only likely candidates I can think of for high attack/low defense woudl be artillery-type units, but these are already handled through giving them low strength (in adjacent tile combat) but ranged bombardment.

2. Differential impact
These aren't "strength while moving into an enemy tile" and "strength while another unit is moving into your tile (like the Civ3 values) so both are relevant in every combat.
So how do these units behave differently?

The only difference I can see is that high attack/low defense units might die faster and kill faster relative to low attack/high defense units. Eg it might take only 2 combats on average for highA/lowD units to kill each other, whereas lowA/highD units might take 4 units on average to kill each other.

But how is this different from just changing hit point values? If I want a unit to be durable, I can give it a slightly lower strength but more hit points. If I want a unit to be non-durable, I can give it a higher strength value but fewer hit points.

Still no need for multiple strength values.
 
I would be surprised if it worked like this; this would imply that weak units still always damaged strong units, no matter how large the difference in strength.
Not necesarily... if hp are always Integers ... then

Str 10
Str 1,000

Str 10 unit takes 40-60 hp of damage
Str 1,000 unit takes 0.4-0.6 = 0 hp of damage

And quite frankly having to stop and heal a little bit for 1 turn after killing a few dozen lesser units seems quite reasonable


I think its more likely that, like in Civ2-4, we will still have "rounds" of combat (but a finite number of rounds), with each unit having a probability of winning the round and damaging the enemy.
That is what makes Civ combat non-transparent

Combat needs to be 1rpt (1 round per turn) with a one step calculation of damage.

If it is one round with a probability of damaging the enemy that would be fine


So if your strength is high enough, you have a high probability of emerging unscathed.
Possible even with one round as I demonstrated
 
What is the design advantage from doing so?
The only reason to do this is if you are going to have some high attack/low defense units and some high defense/low attack units, and if these actually performed differently in combat.

1. Classification
What units would have high defense but low attack? I really can't think of any likely candidates.
"Defensive" units don't meet this criteria; a machinegun is a defensive weapon, but still deals out very high damage when it is defending.
[And how would this behave differently from just giving these units higher hit points?]

The only likely candidates I can think of for high attack/low defense woudl be artillery-type units, but these are already handled through giving them low strength (in adjacent tile combat) but ranged bombardment.

2. Differential impact
These aren't "strength while moving into an enemy tile" and "strength while another unit is moving into your tile (like the Civ3 values) so both are relevant in every combat.
So how do these units behave differently?

The only difference I can see is that high attack/low defense units might die faster and kill faster relative to low attack/high defense units. Eg it might take only 2 combats on average for highA/lowD units to kill each other, whereas lowA/highD units might take 4 units on average to kill each other.

But how is this different from just changing hit point values? If I want a unit to be durable, I can give it a slightly lower strength but more hit points. If I want a unit to be non-durable, I can give it a higher strength value but fewer hit points.

Still no need for multiple strength values.

High defence/lower attack - Tanks, basically all naval units.

tanks are hard to kill, but they only have two weapons, where as a infantry unit would have a lot more weapons but no armour potential.

high attack/ low defence - All ranged units (including gunpoweder units), this high damage to low defence ratios is what would make them useful. capable of dealing lots of damage at range but if engaged slaughterd easily.

The point of having the resistance system in place rather than hiden combat rounds is so that you can actually tells from looking at a comparison of unit stats, whether opr not your upcoming battle is gonna result in heavy casualities.
 
Not necesarily... if hp are always Integers ... then

Str 10
Str 1,000

Str 10 unit takes 40-60 hp of damage
Str 1,000 unit takes 0.4-0.6 = 0 hp of damage

And quite frankly having to stop and heal a little bit for 1 turn after killing a few dozen lesser units seems quite reasonable

Civ units wouldnt have such large and small values. You need resistances to make sure stronger units can't simply be overwhelmed.
 
High defence/lower attack - Tanks, basically all naval units

I'm sorry, tanks and battleships have *low* attack values? How do you figure?
So infantry will kill an enemy unit faster than a tank will?

That is totally contrary to their actual strategic use.
Dug-in infantry defenders are resilient and hard to displace, whereas tank divisions are high firepower spearheads for punching through lines.

It makes no sense to me in a strategic sense that tanks should should require more combats on average than infantry to kill an enemy unit, but be resilient themselves, while infantry get rapidly slaughtered.

I think you're thinking too much about these units as an individual vehicle or handful of soldiers, rather than the Division level that they're actually representing.

And what about *before* the 20th century? Are you going to make knights low-attack high defense because of heavy armor - with exactly the same logical problem? Heavy cavalry are devastating offensive shock value, used for rapidly doing damage and punching through lines. They should not need more turns to kill an enemy unit than does infantry.

And again, I don't see what any of these changes would do that couldn't just be solved with hit point changes.

Civ units wouldnt have such large and small values
Yes, obviously. Kirkkitone disagrees however....
 
Let´s face it.
In the end Civilization is about a COMPETITION between different civs, there´s everything is about technology and resources, whoever gets first to the space age and builds a spaceship wins, it´s different races at different times, race to get to gunpowder era, race to get to the space age etc. and after the space age has begun its a building race, who builds a spaceship fastest wins, that´s the easiest way to victory in my opinion, just curl up defensively and build your spaceship and wait for a few turns to win.

I think the space race should be made a whole lot more difficult, it´s not just that you can build a starship like that, you would need technology far beyound our current tech level to accomplish that, like faster than light drives or cryogenic freezing and wakening technology plus a whole lot of other technologies to make it even remotely possible.

Colonization of Mars would be a first step to the stars, first build bases to the Moon and Mars and space stations to support permanent living in space and THEN you can start dreaming about going to the stars and even one starship would not bring final victory but you would need several (the amount of starships needed could of course be modded, if you want it to end in one starship just make it so by modding it), that´s my opinion about the space race victory, it´s TOO EASY.

Usually I turn the whole space race off, not to allow any civilization the easy way out, FIRST you have to UNIFY the world under one banner the easy way (diplomatic) or the hard way (war), personally I prefer diplomatic victory, it is the most peaceful and harmonic way to end the game and anyway, even going to Mars is going to be a global effort, the ISS already is, the space race is too expensive for any nation alone, not even the mighty U.S. can shoulder the costs alone, the moon program is already in danger when the economy took a hit in the latest financial crisis, will we see a man on the moon in 2020 like they promised or will the U.S. run out of cash?

Anyway, it´s not likely that we´ll have a fleet of starships like in Battlestar Galactica by 2050 or even one like in Civilization.

As for combat values, I mentioned that you can do quite a many tricks with just one combat value that you then alter by modifiers, that could work quite well and it´s not too hard to learn or memorize.
Why would you even need to memorize any of those values, just common sense and a little bit of history knowledge would do the same thing if the system is REALISTIC, you don´t attack riflemen or spearmen with cavalry, not to mention machineguns, history has a few lessons on that. The English cavalry had a tough time at the battle of Stirling bridge in Scotland against Scottish spearmen, anyone seen Braveheart? And in the beginning of WW-1 british cavalry was ordered to charge against advancing Germans to try to delay them, the Germans had machineguns with them and the rest can be guessed, the cavalry was turned into cheap salami (horse meat sausages :D)and the Germans kept advancing.

That is simply why realism is a good thing, it makes those COMMON SENSE things real, despite their bravery Zulu spearmen had no chance against British rifles at Rorke´s Drift, despite the British force being only about a company strong or 100 men or so and the Zulus numbering in the thousands, it was completely catastrophic for the Zulus, they lost a major part of their army just by attacking a single company of only 100 men or less.

Since civilization is a game of competition, wars are inevitable at the very least they will result in the endgame, when someone launches a spaceship and everyone tries to capture their capital before the ship reaches Alpha Centauri (Are there even suitable planets at Alpha Centauri? That could be a part of the space race too, the search for suitable planets.)

I for one would prefer the wars to be REALISTIC when they happen, which is unfortunate, I usually prefer to maintain a peaceful world, but that will simply be boring, you NEED some amount of carnage to make the game FUN, correct?
REALISTICALLY, war is not fun, dead bodies are not fun, nuking a city is not fun, burning people and children alive with napalm or nukes is not fun.

In Sid Meier´s Alpha Centauri if anyone remembers a game of that name, nukes were an ATROCITY, anyone nuking anyone would get the whole world declaring permanent war of extermination on them, anyone using nukes was to be exterminated from the planet by the rest of the factions. I say bring that back, no economic sanctions or diplomatic minuses, just exterminate the hapless civilisation that uses a nuke.
If you decide you want to nuke someone, be prepared to nuke all the rest of them aswell, because after that, your only option is a complete conquest victory, the complete extermination of all rival civilisations, that should bring about lots of fun.

The question I think needs to be asked is, WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE OF THE WAR SIMULATION?
Is it to be REALISTIC?
Or is it to be FUN?
Or BOTH? (Can a war simulation be both realistic and fun?)

If you want a FUN war simulation, then Red Alert is a game for you, it´s a tongue-in cheek simulation of war, you build buildings and troops and then you run them over with a tank, lot´s of fun.

The question is, WHAT MAKES WAR FUN? WHAT IS THE ELEMENT THAT MAKES THE WAR SIMULATION FUN?

In my opinion REALISM is exactly what makes it fun, not the guts and blood, but the fact that there are so many things to consider, so many variables.
You can simulate a lot of different aspects with just ONE number, with modifiers, so one number for both attack and defence will do if its well done, you just use modifiers like -50% WHEN DEFENDING or -50% WHEN ATTACKING to simulate different things.

Additional values could and should be used to simulate the combat environment more realistically.
Like MORALE, this would be the fighting spirit of the unit, if a unit has 120% morale it does extra damage and so on the soldiers are really pumped up and ready to fight. On the other hand if morale drops to 0% then the unit withdraws or more likely flees in panic or maybe surrenders.
You can have units which do primarily "morale damage", psychological warfare units which terrorize the enemy and lowers their morale etc.

DISCIPLINE has been used in Paradox´s strategy games as a value, it can be a modifier to MORALE, more disciplined troops lose morale slower and stay in the fight longer and are less likely to run away than ordinary peasants with pitchforks.

ORGANIZATION has also been used as a value. When a unit begins combat it has 100% organization, it is in good formation and well organized, when a battle progresses and especially in melee combat, the unit loses coherence and the formation starts to disintegrate into chaos, in the end who ever has more organization wins, like the Roman legions, they were so effective because they had good ORGANIZATION and stayed in formation better than barbarians, in ordinary combat one-on-one the Roman soldier might not be any better than the barbarian and without the help of his comrades the winner would be the one with more SKILL with the sword, there´s another value SKILL, how skilled are the units men with the sword or with the rifle, more skilled units win more fights and shoot more accurately doing more damage. Completely REALISTIC and if you like to have lots of variables to consider, then it is FUN aswell.

And yes the system can be made to simulate ALL weapons from clubs to handguns, from arrows to stealth bombers etc.
That´s one fun thing about civilization, it simulates the whole of history, why not simulate it as REALISTICALLY as possible, I say it´s more fun that way.

So, I say ONE value for attack and defence with modifiers if it is well done will do, PLUS more values to simulate combat more realistically, values like SKILL, MORALE, ORGANIZATION, DISCIPLINE, LOYALTY (disloyal troops can defect to the opposing side at the beginning of war or if you run out of cash)

In addition DESERTION and DISEASE could be made part of the game, units lose men to disease and desertion when in enemy territory.

FLANKING ATTACKS should be made part of the system aswell, if a unit is facing north and it is attacked from the east or the west or worse from the south, then the unit is most likely massacred unless it has a tactic like the infantry square to help them, just a matter of HOW you simulate it.

AND the fact that you have multiple values does NOT make it any harder, you don´t need to MEMORIZE all of the values, just some basic common sense rules, don´t attack machineguns or similar units with cavalry etc.

Cheers!
 
FLANKING ATTACKS should be made part of the system aswell, if a unit is facing north and it is attacked from the east or the west or worse from the south,

They've said they've added some kind of flanking system.

I absolutely hate the idea of wargamizing Civ by adding desertion, disease, morale, organization, discipline, loyalty, etc. etc.

If you want those, play a wargame.
 
Civilization ALREADY IS A WARGAME, it centers around civilizations COMPETING AGAINST EACH OTHER and WAR is one important part of that competition.

If you want to play the game PEACEFULLY, like I do, then you won´t have too much use for those military parts of the game, but INEVITABLY, someone is going to declare war on your empire and you´ll have a defensive war on your hands and when that happens, I at least want it to be REALISTICALLY MODELLED, so I can make decisions based on COMMON SENSE and that is why ALL ASPECTS of warfare should be modelled.

Not having values like MORALE etc. is UNREALISTIC, because those are factors that influence the outcome of battles in REAL WORLD.

The problem with having only one value STRENGTH is that you can´t really at least to my knowledge simulate MORALE with that. You COULD have a low morale unit have a -50% modifier both to attack and defence but the question is WHEN? you would need to specify under which conditions the morale bonus or minus applies and that could be a LONG list, there are a million things that could affect morale and morale can be and will be affected DURING battle, so you would have to code in to the core of the combat system, units that take casualties lose morale and units that are winning gain morale, units that have "tenacious defender" promotion (used in Panzer General) have a morale bonus when defending etc.

In the end there´s no reason not to add those new features into the game, if you want to play the game peacefully, you won´t need the combat system much, but if you plan on doing more fighting it´s good to have a realistic system to model it, realism makes it EASIER to play, you just have to keep those common sense lessons in mind.

Cheers!
 
I'm sorry, tanks and battleships have *low* attack values? How do you figure?
So infantry will kill an enemy unit faster than a tank will?

That is totally contrary to their actual strategic use.
Dug-in infantry defenders are resilient and hard to displace, whereas tank divisions are high firepower spearheads for punching through lines.

It makes no sense to me in a strategic sense that tanks should should require more combats on average than infantry to kill an enemy unit, but be resilient themselves, while infantry get rapidly slaughtered.

I think you're thinking too much about these units as an individual vehicle or handful of soldiers, rather than the Division level that they're actually representing.

And what about *before* the 20th century? Are you going to make knights low-attack high defense because of heavy armor - with exactly the same logical problem? Heavy cavalry are devastating offensive shock value, used for rapidly doing damage and punching through lines. They should not need more turns to kill an enemy unit than does infantry.

And again, I don't see what any of these changes would do that couldn't just be solved with hit point changes.


Yes, obviously. Kirkkitone disagrees however....

i didnt say low i said lower as in lower than there defence, tanks, battleships and maybe knights to a lower degree are both hard to kill and capable of inflicting serious damage, where as men wrapped in cloth wielding submachinge guns, are very easy to kill as long as your still alive to injure them. This difference represented in a game would be nice to see.

hit point changes would be better if weaker units had a much much much reduced chance of dealing damage to a superior foe.
 
Civilization ALREADY IS A WARGAME, it centers around civilizations COMPETING AGAINST EACH OTHER and WAR is one important part of that competition.
Civ is not a wargames. Its a strategy games where sometimes war happens. War is important, but its not the sole focus.

If you think it is, you clearly haven't played many actual wargames.

i didnt say low i said lower as in lower than there defence, tanks, battleships and maybe knights to a lower degree are both hard to kill and capable of inflicting serious damag

If they are hard to kill *and* inflict serious damage... then just give them higher Strength!

Still no need for 2 separate strength values.
 
Jopo: I think you may just be a little confused about what the term "wargame" means. In a wargame, there is no option but war--so you could never have a "diplomatic victory" in a wargame, let alone something like a "cultural victory" or "space race victory."

It seems to me, though, that you are interpreting the term "wargame" to mean "a game that has war in it." This is not how the term is usually understood.
 
Civilization ALREADY IS A WARGAME, it centers around civilizations COMPETING AGAINST EACH OTHER and WAR is one important part of that competition.

If you want to play the game PEACEFULLY, like I do, then you won´t have too much use for those military parts of the game, but INEVITABLY, someone is going to declare war on your empire and you´ll have a defensive war on your hands and when that happens, I at least want it to be REALISTICALLY MODELLED, so I can make decisions based on COMMON SENSE and that is why ALL ASPECTS of warfare should be modelled.

Not having values like MORALE etc. is UNREALISTIC, because those are factors that influence the outcome of battles in REAL WORLD.

The problem with having only one value STRENGTH is that you can´t really at least to my knowledge simulate MORALE with that. You COULD have a low morale unit have a -50% modifier both to attack and defence but the question is WHEN? you would need to specify under which conditions the morale bonus or minus applies and that could be a LONG list, there are a million things that could affect morale and morale can be and will be affected DURING battle, so you would have to code in to the core of the combat system, units that take casualties lose morale and units that are winning gain morale, units that have "tenacious defender" promotion (used in Panzer General) have a morale bonus when defending etc.

In the end there´s no reason not to add those new features into the game, if you want to play the game peacefully, you won´t need the combat system much, but if you plan on doing more fighting it´s good to have a realistic system to model it, realism makes it EASIER to play, you just have to keep those common sense lessons in mind.

Cheers!

There's nothing common sense about it because morale will be the same for all units, given how generic the selection is. (do you differentiate between a Macedonian pikeman or a circa-1600 Swedish pikeman with the same unit?) The mechanic will end up punishing the loser and rewarding the winner, making combat much more swingy and all about the first roll.

It's just too detailed a mechanic in this abstract strategy game. We don't know what a unit is, is it a man? A company? A brigade? A division? Given the turn-lengths, we'd have to have impulses to have realistic campaigns, which would make the game very clunky, especially in multiplayer.

And in games with these subsystems, it's often not common sense things that end up winning the day.
 
Civ units wouldnt have such large and small values.
They do, those values are just hidden by the complicated combat mechanics.... an Infantry (Str 20) is NOT twice as powerful as a Knight (Str 10) in civ 4... it is ~8-10 times as powerful, because it would take ~6-12 Knight to kill an Infantry on open terrain.

You need resistances to make sure stronger units can't simply be overwhelmed.

Why not? should a Str 16 unit beat an infinite number of Str 15 units?

No it should get overwhelmed by str 15 units.. if you have enough

A Str 16 unit should get overwhelmed by Str 1 units.... if you have enough.

And the sensible number of Str 1 units that can overwhelm a Str 16 unit would be 16. (on average)

That way I know what enemy army my Army can actually beat (on open plains no terrain/modifiers... those modifiers are where the tactics comes in)


1 Healthy Spear beats 1 Healthy Tank Should Never happen (0%)...
but if you have ~1,000 Spears v. 1 Tank, then it should be 100% win for the spears (assuming they can all attack in one turn.)

The Randomness in the model needs to be reduced Significantly... Every combat should cause some slightly random damage to Both sides, with the exception of Ranged v. Melee combat (and possibly integer values)

If you want a tank to survive 1000 spearman you should do one of 2 things
1. Make the Tank 1000x the strength of a spearman
2. Give the Tank a special ability that lets it kill spearman without being hit

It seems like Ranged combat for gunpowder unit would allow some limited #2, but units move fast, so They should still have some of #1

If the Strengths of units don't vary by a factor of at least 100 between Warriors and the Mechs from the future era, then those Strengths are misleading.
 
Combat by it´s very nature is chaotic and random. One minute you´re alive and the next you´re a heap of mutilated flesh or a lying dead on the ground with a hole in your head.

Factors that influence combat should be REALISTICALLY modelled in the game, that´s what I´m saying.

Factors that influence combat are things like SKILL (how good a shot you are or how good you are with a sword, also includes things like EVASIVE SKILL, how good you are at keeping yourself alive, like taking cover or parrying with your shield, these factors are covered by the SKILL value, the higher the skill of a unit the better ACCURACY they have and hence more damage, also affects how well a unit EVADES damage.

I propose, that for every roll of attack dice, the defender has a roll of EVASIVE DICE, that is for every attack, the defender has a chance of avoiding damage. Example: when someone shoots at you, you have a chance to take cover, that is you have a chance to avoid damage and if someone swings a sword at you, you have a chance to parry it with a shield, correct?

MORALE covers things like bravery and fighting spirit, this would be a value affected by your society and civics, if you build a martial civilization like the ancient Spartans, then your units will have higher MORALE and will have an edge over the opponents similar units.

Could you do all of these values with just ONE combat value and PROMOTIONS and MODIFIERS? Perhaps, but they would have to be some pretty powerful promotions.

Having a higher MORALE than the opponent is a critical factor in combat, lower morale troops easily break and run away, like I´ve explained.

ORGANIZATION is used in Paradox strategy games and it depicts what the name suggests, the units level of organization, better organized units make more lethal killing machines, a Roman legion was highly organized and the men fought in close formation and protected each other with their shields and so forth, they cooperated closely, whereas a barbarian horde was a disorganized mob, brave, but disorganized, they fought well as individuals, but were no match for the organized legions. Hence ORGANIZATION is a critical element in depicting combat realistically.

So, SKILL, MORALE, ORGANIZATION...

DISCIPLINE might be another, more disciplined troops stay in formation better, like the Roman legions which were very disciplined and hence fought well.

Loyalty might be another value, if a unit is disloyal, it can defect to the opposing side in the middle of a war, that would be a nasty surprise.

With MORALE as a value there would be two sets of dice rolls in combat, both sides throw attack dice to do damage to each other and cause casualties and then there is MORALE DAMAGE or SHOCK, the attacker causes SHOCK DAMAGE to the defender depicting the shock effect of a charge of infantry or cavalry, a charge throws the defender off-balance and shakes their MORALE. On the other hand the attacker loses MORALE because of casualties, if the defender inflicts lots of casualties on the attacker, their morale might break and the attack fails, possibly with disastrous consequences, because the defender might do a counter-attack to rout the attacker for good and if the defender is already winning, then they might enjoy a morale bonus and counter-attack devastatingly, destroying the attacking army.

Already the morale is basically depicted in the withdrawal chance of units, a poor morale unit is more likely to withdraw, although this is a bit poor depiction, because you WANT the units to withdraw to save them from destruction and to get experience points, so a high withdrawal chance is a good thing, which a poor morale is not.

I believe that a REALISTIC combat system is more fun and easier to learn, you only need to remember the common sense rules and history lessons.
For a realistic combat system it might be necessary to have more than one value and I say that if it is necessary, then do so, but IF you can do all those tricks that I´ve outlined, if you can simulate everything just by using ONE value with modifiers and promotions, then that is just as good, but you must prove me that you can do it, give me examples.

Also, I would propose a MANPOWER value on cities, every population point can support a fixed number of units, you need manpower to replenish your units, you must have a pool of manpower from which to recruit, a civilization of 1.000.000 citizens cannot support an army of ten million, correct? You need to have manpower represented in some way, army units need men and they conscript or recruit citizens to their ranks and the size of the population determines the size of the army, you can´t have an army of millions with a small population.

Cheers! :goodjob:
 
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