Attacking a city, Question

[AdamG]

Hey everybody,

I had a strange experience in the game and I wanted to confirm whether my suspicions are correct.

I attacked a city of an opponent, I had about 3 archer units, 3 longbow units and probably about 6 or 7 catapult units.
Three archers from the city destroyed everything mentioned above.

Now, it was the renaissance era ( I believe..) . Were my catapults just very outdated? So, thats why 7 units + couldn't take some archers?
I didn't see any other units for city attack however...
(the game is up to its current patch)

any help appreciated!

 

[nbcman]

@AdamG

It depends on whether or not you attacked the city on a hill with walls, or if you bombarded away the cultural defense before attacking. Also, archery type units aren't the best units to attack cities with. Axemen and swordsmen are better and can get City Raider upgrades which improve their chances of winning when attacking cities.

If you are in the renaissance era, the best city attacking units are macemen and trebuchets.

You may want to read Sisiutil's strategy guide for some tips on the mechanics of city attacks located:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165632

 

[Polobo]

With proper tactics you should have easily taken the city (from your description). You should have only lost a few catapults and not even had needed to use your archers unless you got very unlucky. After bombarding down the cultural/wall defenses you use your catapults until they are unable to attack. Then cleanup with the Longbows, which should all have a good chance of living. This is if you are really facing archers and now longbows in the target city. This is said without promotions being considered but even with CGII+Hill archers catapults should cleanup pretty well since you outnumber them 2-1 with an extra.

If you can post screen-shots of the two stacks (including promotions) that would help us to further analyze your attack.

 

[AdamG]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I did indeed bomard the defenses first. If I still have the option to do so, does that mean its not destroyed?
(i.e. bombard until the option is gone)

 

[Orzio]

If the option is still there the culture defense is not 0.

 

[Polobo]

Yes (I think). Above the city bar there is a percentage that indicates how much defensive bonus units in the city are getting due to culture/defenses. Without walls a single catapult will reduce that number by 8% each time it bombards (with walls it will only do 4%; 2% for a castle). That number is in addition to hill and unit (archers have innate city AND hill defensive bonuses). If you didn't wipe out the cultural defense and the archers had CGII or better promotions you very well could have lost all your catapults without damaging the archers enough for your longbows to win.

 

[Tibur753]

Which order did the units attack in?

If you attacked with the longbows first that might have caused you to lose.

You should use some catapults first for the collateral damage

 

[AdamG]

Ah, Ok. That must be part of the reason.

I'm correct in assuming, even catapults must 'enter' the tile of the castle to attack it?
(I'm new to the game )

I ask because it often seemed like the catapults were over-shooting.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Ah, Ok. That must be part of the reason.

I'm correct in assuming, even catapults must 'enter' the tile of the castle to attack it?
(I'm new to the game )

I ask because it often seemed like the catapults were over-shooting.

The combat graphics will show a unit missing its target because it is loosing the battle. Just remember that the loosing part does not happen as a result of the graphical display of a unit missing its target.

Did your catapaults have any promotions? personally, i always use collateral damage promotion since i consider catapaults, cannons and artillery to be sacraficial first strike units.

 

[Willem]

Hey everybody,

I had a strange experience in the game and I wanted to confirm whether my suspicions are correct.

I attacked a city of an opponent, I had about 3 archer units, 3 longbow units and probably about 6 or 7 catapult units.
Three archers from the city destroyed everything mentioned above.

Now, it was the renaissance era ( I believe..) . Were my catapults just very outdated? So, thats why 7 units + couldn't take some archers?
I didn't see any other units for city attack however...
(the game is up to its current patch)

any help appreciated!

You don't attack a city with Archers or Longbowman, they just aren't meant for that role. Use Axemen, Swordsmen or Maceman, maybe even Knights. Archers etc. are meant to be used for defence or at the very most offence against weaker units near your own cities. They just aren't strong enough to take out an enemy city. If you can't build anything better than that, then you shouldn't be attacking anyone. Just hunker down until Gunpowder or above when you can make some decent offensive units with no resource requirements.

 

[Willem]

Ah, Ok. That must be part of the reason.

I'm correct in assuming, even catapults must 'enter' the tile of the castle to attack it?
(I'm new to the game )

I ask because it often seemed like the catapults were over-shooting.

Yes well, that's definitely part of your problem right there. Catapults have two ways they can attack a city. The first is bombarding the defences until you don't see a number anymore, which you obviously are aware of, and the second is just like a normal attack where you try to move the unit into the enemy occupied square. When that happens, not only does the unit it is attacking take damage, but several other units on the tile as well. That's called collateral damage. That can greatly weaken all the defenders in the city so that your regular units have a much easier time when it's their turn to attack.

 

[mystikmind2005]

You don't attack a city with Archers or Longbowman, they just aren't meant for that role. Use Axemen, Swordsmen or Maceman, maybe even Knights. Archers etc. are meant to be used for defence or at the very most offence against weaker units near your own cities. They just aren't strong enough to take out an enemy city. If you can't build anything better than that, then you shouldn't be attacking anyone. Just hunker down until Gunpowder or above when you can make some decent offensive units with no resource requirements.

I would dissagree with this. If you have catapults then there is no reason you cannot wipe out your enemies.

I would agree that Archers are not the best units for assaulting cities, but so what, just bring more catapults! With collateral damage, they will get the job done.

 

[Willem]

I would dissagree with this. If you have catapults then there is no reason you cannot wipe out your enemies.

I would agree that Archers are not the best units for assaulting cities, but so what, just bring more catapults! With collateral damage, they will get the job done.

Yes, if you had enough Catapults you might be able to take out a lightly defended city, but I certainly wouldn't recommend using those types of units for something that was heavily defended. Unless of course you had a lot of them and were prepared to suffer heavy losses.

 

[mystikmind2005]

Yes, if you had enough Catapults you might be able to take out a lightly defended city, but I certainly wouldn't recommend using those types of units for something that was heavily defended. Unless of course you had a lot of them and were prepared to suffer heavy losses.

Actually, catapults would be much better suited to taking on heavily defended cities rather than a lightly defended one when you think of it in terms of 'economies of scale' factoring in the effects of collateral damage.

A city with 2 units may defeat 3 or 4 catapults before it is defeated, however a city with 6 units will also kill only 3 or 4 catapaults. Once the rest of the units become weak, the catapults will all start winning after that.

cities with massive numbers of units will inflict heavy losses on you if you attack them with catapults, but so long as you have enough to follow through with the attack, in the end, their casualties will be far greater.

You tell me which is the better deal?

 

[Wolfshanze]

In the most simplest of terms for any noob, this is how any city should be attacked:

1) Bombard with siege weapons (Catapults, Trebuchets, Cannons, etc) until the culture rating is zero (I suppose 1% or 2% isn't bad either). Do not proceed to step-2 until this is done.

2) Lead the attack with your siege weapons... they will probably be sacrificed, but the collateral damage they will cause all subsequent attacks to have a higher chance of success... the more siege weapons you use at one instance, the better (much better to attack with four or five catapults at once then just one).

3) Attack with your strongest or best-matchup units first (after the siege weapon assault). If he's defending with axemen, attack with chariots... if he's defending with archers, attack with units that have anti-archer promotions... so-on and so-on. Save your weakest units for "mop-up" duty.

If you follow the three above steps you should be successful every time... and remember once you pass into the modern era, Bombers become the siege weapons of choice (death from above).

 

[Polobo]

Re: Wolfshanze's noob attack procedures:

Overly simplistic and probably not the most efficient but it will do the job. #1 is key.

Once you get the basic gist of combat adding in other units and promotions can make life easier (and save you hammers). Some modifications to consider:

#2: This should be a combination of siege AND mounted units with flanking. The goal is to damage every defender at least a little. Lacking mounted units you can use ground troops instead, but you will incur more losses.

#3 Once you get some damage on everyone it is time to bring in the city raiders (either siege versions or ground units). Attack with whichever unit has the best odds. This is not a suicide run, expect to have a decent chance of winning each battle (> 60%). If no-one can get good odds go back to step two.

#4 Once you take out those top units city raider siege should be able to attack until everyone is at minimal health. At this point bring in your mop-up crew (drill is nice here) and take the city.

Obviously having all the strategic resources is key, but if you do you can wage a very efficient campaign (the hard/long part ends up being the bombardment phase when the enemy has walls/castles - spies are a good alternative here).

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Re: Wolfshanze's noob attack procedures:

Obviously having all the strategic resources is key, but if you do you can wage a very efficient campaign (the hard/long part ends up being the bombardment phase when the enemy has walls/castles - spies are a good alternative here).

I'd definitely suggest the spy route, especially in the earlier eras when you are facing walls and castles. Sure, they'll catch a couple but if you put multiple spies in the city, you will cause the revolt. Now you need WAY less Siege weapons, as their only purpose will be for suicides. Can save you several turns of bombardment, speeding up the war. And spies are cheap anyhow, so no worse building them than siege weapons. And then of course, sometimes when they are successful they get sent back to the capital for you to use again.

One other benefit is because the spies can use enemy roads, they can always be ahead of the stack.

True, in the modern era spies get caught A LOT more and since bombers become available, using bombers is probably the way to go.

 

[Harry Potter52]

Yeah as Wolfshanze said, suicide the catapults. And use your archers before the long bowmen... You would rather want the archers to die.

 

[Yxklyx]

Don't forget to use the Alt key to determine the odds in a battle.

 

[AdamG]

Re: Wolfshanze's noob attack procedures:

Overly simplistic and probably not the most efficient but it will do the job. #1 is key.

Once you get the basic gist of combat adding in other units and promotions can make life easier (and save you hammers). Some modifications to consider:

#2: This should be a combination of siege AND mounted units with flanking. The goal is to damage every defender at least a little. Lacking mounted units you can use ground troops instead, but you will incur more losses.

#3 Once you get some damage on everyone it is time to bring in the city raiders (either siege versions or ground units). Attack with whichever unit has the best odds. This is not a suicide run, expect to have a decent chance of winning each battle (> 60%). If no-one can get good odds go back to step two.

#4 Once you take out those top units city raider siege should be able to attack until everyone is at minimal health. At this point bring in your mop-up crew (drill is nice here) and take the city.

Obviously having all the strategic resources is key, but if you do you can wage a very efficient campaign (the hard/long part ends up being the bombardment phase when the enemy has walls/castles - spies are a good alternative here).

Ok,
There's a lot I'm unsure of here:

@ #2 With regards to the combination of siege and mounted units, only one unit can attack one other unit at once, right?
So, you mean a combination on the same tile?


@ #3 "Some damage on everyone": when I attack, it goes to something like a minicutscreen, showing the units fighting each other and it ends when one of the two units are completely dead.
Am I doing somethign wrong?

Finally, I guess spies come later on in thne game? I've never seen that option yet..

Thanks a lot for the help so far!

-Adam

( I was also unaware of the alt = odds bit.)