Attn: Navy Admirals!

[planetfall]

I don't see the point of Naval Freaks huge stacks. It seems like a waste in C3C. C3C is still a land war game, Navies are only required for:

1. DDay events
2. escorting armies/settlers to distant continent after DDay

Air transport is just too easy and fast and speeds up the game so fast a good Navy is not important.

What could an AI Navy do to you?

A- Bombard land
B- blockage trade route
C- Mobile airfields on carriers
D- sink AC and transports

That's it. Ok let's examine risk and typical response to AI Navy.

A- Bombard land
Risk- nuisance level. DS and BS and Cruisers have limited bombard ability.
Response-- RR'ed workers. Workers are excellent at repairing bombard damage on same turn. May occasionly lose an improvement, but our cost of rebuilding improvement is less than the cost to AI of building new bombard ships.

B- Block trade route
Risk- low nuisance, have not seen this done by AI even if I have 0 navy.
Response--ignore it.

C- Carrier strikes
Risk-- Medium. With improved bomber ranges, AI likes to position itself at max range and use bombers to strike distant cities. I usually see somewhere between 4-6 mini carrier forces: carrier, DS, DS, and maybe BS.
Response-- AA in target city and sub wolf packs to target carriers.

D- Sink transports & AC
Risk-- Moderate. This is the only time you really need a good Navy, in order to support your DDay landing. AI will target your battle group but will not use coordinated multivector attacks.
Response-- Reduce vulnerability by using shortest transport routes and if possible multi DDay targets. All you really need for DDay is a good battle group:
-- 10 DS
-- 7 trans
-- 5 AC
-- 5 BS
-- 2 cruisers
Rest are "fun" but a waste of resources.

Preferences changes which can increase Naval game fun
AEGIS carry 4 nukes.
[why? takes long time to move units, units could carry more nukes so don't have to return to port for each TN]

SSN range increase by 1 or 2, and carry 2 nukes
[why? SSN is given too short of a range, SSN's with 16 TN is obviously greater than game's allowing only 1 TN, May want to give SSN 4 TN's and AEGIS only 2 TN's for balance reasons, it's more fun]

Then use SSN and AEGIS as tactical nuke platforms, most AI cities will be reachable by TN. Even if lose 1/6th of SSN's, you have still saved costs over ICBM's.

PF

 

[SinisterDeath]

I love naval warfare. I have 2 battlegroups right now.

Battlegroup #1 (which is used for invasion)
5 Transports 1.Artillery 2.Artillery 3.Infantry 4.Tanks 5.Tanks
Total :16 Artillery, 8 Infantry, 16 Tanks.
3 Destroyers
5 Battleships
3 Carriers - 4 Bombers in each (AI doesn't have flight)
2 Submarines

Battlegroup #2 (Used for harrassment and sneak attack)
2 Destroyers
6 Battleships
6 Nuclear Submarines (4 more under construction)

I should add that I have a city in the middle of Japanese territory along the ocean and near their major cities like Kyoto and Toyko. I will park my harrassment force inside my borders and once war starts I am ready to launch tac nukes from my subs, take out their ships, and pound their cities/units/resources/roads/luxuries.

Resource denial combined with a stack of combined forces (infantry, tanks, and artillery) makes for a quick and messy - (for your opponent war.

No oil means no battleships/subs/cruisers/carriers and AFAIK tanks. I love using ships against the AI, since they are so dumb when it comes to using them.

 

[danegeld]

http://www.ussguam.com/cb2/specs.html

 

[planetfall]

Sinister,

TN are great before ICBM's as AI does not have any effective counter. I just started using them after figuring out even if I lose 2-3 SSN's with TN's, I still am ahead of TN.

Here's a chuckle for you. I stopped using them because I was misusing SSN's. I thought the TN range was 1. [Maybe it was for PTW, I can't remember]. TN launches were great but with a range of 1 the SSN became a suicide SSN. Now that I have figured out range is 6, 80% of targets are within range.

Reminds me of the cold war and the boomers loaded with at least 16 TN's. Except in the game we get to use them.

And yeah it is fun to see a ton of AI ironclads or DS take on battle groups. They are great for harrassment, and defense of ironclads vs DS seems too high for values, but still not an important factor.

PF

 

[danegeld]

never seen the AI use TN or a ICBM, I have launched strikes at a enmey who has declared war on me and it breaks my alliences.

mutual protections and RoP are negated by use of nukes.

 

[planetfall]

Originally posted by danegeld
never seen the AI use TN or a ICBM, I have launched strikes at a enmey who has declared war on me and it breaks my alliences.

Maybe you haven't waited for them to build them, or are playing at too low of a level.
Actually I have not seen use of TN's but ICBM's are too common. Luckily AI uses poor ICBM targeting.

mutual protections and RoP are negated by use of nukes.

If you still need MPP and ROP, you have no business playing with nukes, period. In that situation they simply hurt more than help. Nukes are for final OK corral showdowns: me vs KAI, everyone else get out of the way. If situation is not Major players: me, KAI; minor: any number, then nukes only value is bluster.


== PF

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Hygro
I say build a bunch of destroyers for solo patrol as to make the AIs naval skills more of a challange

Actually, I typically use a fair number of Destroyers. I'll deploy them off my coast with overlapping zones to form something of a naval "picket line". Any AI approaching my shores is seen long before he/she reaches my shore...

When playing continents I'll typically build 2 "battle groups"... one for each ocean... each with a battleship or two, a carrier, 2 or 3 cruisers and 4 or so destroyers... (see C3C notes below as to why I don't build a lot of subs)

For you admiral types playing vanilla CivIII - you really ought to get Conquests. Some of the differences among the industrial era ships:

1) they generally have some anti-aircraft capability built in.
2) destroyers can see subs
3) you get Cruisers, which (among other things) have RADAR.
4) Destroyers, Transports, and Carriers are faster, Battleships are slower...
5) Subs have "stealth" attack capability - you can pick your target; a sub can choose to attack the lone transport under a stack of 10 capital ships.

My favorite ship is the Destroyer, hands down. They're cheap, fast, and in modest numbers, deadly.

 

[planetfall]

Scoutsout,

Why don't you build more SN or SSN's? Don't you have AI AC running long range bombing missions? Wolfpacks of 3-4 SN/SSN will take out a loaded carrrier. With C3C you can cherry pick the AC and ignore the defensive units.

I rarely build many DS. What do you see as a good number to have?

FYI- I used to build 2 BG, but now as AI is closer I can only afford to build 1. Sometimes difficulty levels can be annoying.

PF

 

[Cspiffy148]

Destroyers are essential to defend against subs and nuke subs later. Sometimes the AI can be annoying with their subs. I usually have Destroyers lining my coast but I'm a little paranoid.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by planetfall
Scoutsout,<snip>What do you see as a good number to have?

I like to have about 4 in each "battle group", plus another 6-8 for patrolling off my shores.

You've got me re-thinking some things on subs. I usually mix in a few Cruisers with my patrolling Destroyers (they hit a bit harder...) Perhaps having a few 3-4 sub wolfpacks wouldn't be a bad idea.

The truth is, I rarely see a well organized AI fleet - even when the AI has a fair amount of naval power. Combined arms, whether land or naval, is not something the AI seems good at. Typically I see a transport or two, escorted by a destroyer or battleship... headed towards my shore. I'm more interested in the early warning than the naval battle.

 

[planetfall]

Originally posted by scoutsout
I like to have about 4 in each "battle group", plus another 6-8 for patrolling off my shores.

Oh, I had thought you were talking about 20 to 40.

You've got me re-thinking some things on subs. I usually mix in a few Cruisers with my patrolling Destroyers (they hit a bit harder...) Perhaps having a few 3-4 sub wolfpacks wouldn't be a bad idea.

Actually a good idea for those odd pesky DS that are winning more than share of battles.

The truth is, I rarely see a well organized AI fleet - even when the AI has a fair amount of naval power. Combined arms, whether land or naval, is not something the AI seems good at. Typically I see a transport or two, escorted by a destroyer or battleship... headed towards my shore. I'm more interested in the early warning than the naval battle.

May vary with difficulty level. In last game on emperor, AI had 3 battle groups.
1 AC, 2DS, 1 DS/BS. Group 1 was a free roaming group on a harassment, distraction mission. Groups 2 & 3 took turns on position. Here is the way the AI played it. Park group 10 tiles from target city. Launch bomber missions. With no counter strike, would move in second group and send in 2 wavew of bombers.
When started bomber missions against groups. DS's would absorb the hits. If lucky would take a HP from carrier. Group would launch bombers and return to port in one move. Group 2 would sit out next turn for recovery and return to point position after healed. Thus I was constantly under attack.

Turn 1-- Group 2 strike and take returning fire
Turn 2-- Group 3 move into position, strike and take hits. Group 2 moves to port.
Turn 3-- Group 2 heals, Group 3 moves to port.

repeat, repeat.

Thus I was under fresh attack 2/3 turns.

"wolfpacks" of 3-4 SN/SSN took care of that problem nicely and cheaper than a ton of bombers. NB: Wolfpack is not a stack but rather grouping withing 1/2 to 1 turn spread that coordinate attacks and then disperse.

I don't care about too much early warning as I have not seen multiple transport landings on one spot.

I usually only have 1..3 DS free patrolling, and mostly near bottlenecks where their sole purpose is to detect subs.

PF

 

[seanos08]

Destroyers are cheap fast sub killers that can kill ANY weakened naval unit.

Let the enemy come to your shore and plaster them with Bombers. A 1/4 BB is an easy kill and elite upgrade for a destroyer.

Also a wolfpack of privateers is a must to plausibly deniably waste troublesome neutral transports.

Defending islands - occupy every square on the coast so they can't land anything without marines. The iroquoi ROP sneak attacked me before and I trust nobody.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by planetfall
Oh, I had thought you were talking about 20 to 40.

I should have been a little more clear - 4 for each battle group, plus 6-8 for each coast. So if I were playing a standard size map of the "real" world, and owned "the Americas", I'd probably have 2 or 3 battle groups, plus a half dozen or so destroyers for the east and west coasts of North and South Amercia. (I might have 4 here and 9 there, depending on the coastal layout...)

So yeah - I guess I am talking 20 to 40 in all...but it depends on how much coastline I have, and how close the enemy coastline is, etc.

I also like a nice sprinkling of cruisers. A couple/three of them for each battle group, plus one cruiser per three destroyers on "picket duty". Cruisers pack a nice punch for finishing off an enemy that's taken a few cruiser hits, and a fair bombard value if an attack looks risky...While the Battleships are a lot more potent, in C3C they're also a lot slower. It can be tricky to close with the enemy using a Battleship. If you're against a seafaring civ with Magellan's, your naval units move two slower than theirs, not just one...

NB: Wolfpack is not a stack but rather grouping withing 1/2 to 1 turn spread that coordinate attacks and then disperse.

PF - would you mind giving a little more detail on "1/2 to one turn spread" and your "wolfpack attack and disperse" tactics? I clearly need to re-evaluate my naval tactics...(IRL, I was a soldier once, so Civ ground combat is easier for me...) Start at a point slightly above "this is a sub" (I got that much) and take it from there...

 

[greek-anarchist]

Personally navy is all I play. I have had civ3 gold for a while, and i have yet to lose a game. I always focus on getting as many cities as possible on the coast, leaving a few landlocked cities to make wondrs/ground units to defend me. I win every naval war b/c the AI cant defend it. My srategy is:
1-many mini battle groups
-these groups are cheap-10-12 units total
-3 BS, 3ageis, 1 AC(3 stealth bombers 1 fighter on superioirity) and 3-5 nuclear subs
-put AC in middle-battle ships in front and 1 oneach side of carier
-1 ageis in front of front battleship, to the side of and back/away diagonal 1
-Spread the subs around to detect other subs, and take out pesky AI ships
I usually have 5-7 of these in a game. I put them so that the range of the bombers border eachother and surround a continent full of AI, or if im actually at war, just the country. I've never tried the wolfpack strategy, but i just got combustion in a game i'm playing and i will definentally try it.

HAIL TO THE NAVY!!!!!!!

(so sorry for repeating, my computer froze and i thought it didnt post! my bad. it wont happen again, i hope!

 

[greek-anarchist]

Personally navy is all I play. I have had civ3 gold for a while, and i have yet to lose a game. I always focus on getting as many cities as possible on the coast, leaving a few landlocked cities to make wondrs/ground units to defend me. I win every naval war b/c the AI cant defend it. My srategy is:
1-many mini battle groups
-these groups are cheap-10-12 units total
-3 BS, 3ageis, 1 AC(3 stealth bombers 1 fighter on superioirity) and 3-5 nuclear subs
-put AC in middle-battle ships in front and 1 oneach side of carier
-1 ageis in front of front battleship, to the side of and back/away diagonal 1
-Spread the subs around to detect other subs, and take out pesky AI ships
I usually have 5-7 of these in a game. I put them so that the range of the bombers border eachother and surround a continent full of AI, or if im actually at war, just the country. I've never tried the wolfpack strategy, but i just got combustion in a game i'm playing and i will definentally try it.

I also have a "big brother" strategy-On the coast of each continent i line it with subs (once i have nuc subs i put a TN on them next to the countries that are a "threat to national security" all the rest are probably regular subs) By lineing it i can view all of their naval action in and out of ports. I also get RoP's with people and poition gurillas and marines in the same maner (but thats a different topic all together)
-I dont know of anyone else with this strategy of "knowledge is power", so i hope u try it, cause it works for me

HAIL TO THE NAVY!!!!!!!

(so sorry for repeating, my computer froze and i thought it didnt post! my bad. it wont happen again, i hope!)

 

[planetfall]

Originally posted by scoutsout
PF - would you mind giving a little more detail on "1/2 to one turn spread" and your "wolfpack attack and disperse" tactics?

Ok, but it's so simple. Here is typical zoom out view. Notes on view:

Green/cyan diamonds are just markers to make counting easier. They form an X,Y axis and are 5 tiles apart.

My coastal city being targeted by AC based bombers is Me

AI AC point, is forward point position of AI AC so bombers are at maximum range, i.e., 10 tiles away.

AI city with harbor for healing of damaged ships is Harbor

 

[planetfall]

The dotted purple line and inside is the closest you can position your subs.

The solid purple line is the fartherest away you can position your subs for strike
in one turn. Naturally you may want to position the first couple outside this until you have your group/pack of 3..5 subs in position.

What I do is then watch the movement of AI ships from Harbor to AC point. In sample it would probably be on a NE-SW line. There could be more reinforcements coming in from W of AC point.

What are options? A] pack subs together in a stack. I don't like this because my target is the AC and I want to either sucker DS away from AC or make it more difficult for DS to find me and still protect AC. B] spread out subs in half circle or 3/4 circle and then coordinate attacks on one turn.

Thus in example, for first position, I would put subs at N,NE, SSE of AC point. Later if I had more time, I would add a sub at NNW. Two of the retreating subs would go towards E and ESE or ENE. I want to put the DS that follow, if any, at risk of bomber counter attacks from city Me.

Again, nothing too fancy, but it works to eliminate those pesky long range bomber strikes.

PF

 

[scoutsout]

Thanks Planetfall - I appreciate that - the graphics help. So you pull the subs towards the solid circle from different directions, and wait till you've got the equivalent of a "stack" along the solid purple line... but hopefully away from the AI's line between the harbor and the launch point, so they won't be spotted by enemy destroyers...dispersing them means that if one is spotted you'll still have some that escape detection...

A couple of follow-up questions:

How many does it usually take you to put your subs in this position? (including turns for recon/observation...)

How do you plan the size of the 'wolfpack'? Do you factor one or two in for losses to enemy destroyers? How many per enemy AC?

These are kind of those "generals who make many calculations" Sun Tzu kinds of questions...

 

[planetfall]

How many [turns?]-- forever. Actually it depends if using SN or SSN and if you have Magellan or not. Assuming the worst, movement is 3 tiles per turn. Thus it will take at least 4..5 from Me and probably longer from ship building city. With SSN it's closer to 3 turns from Me. This seems like forever when those nasty bombers are incoming, so I usually beef up AA as much as possible while waiting for subs to get in position. If I can get the AI to use another city as target and have more moves between point position and healing harbor, the better off I am.

DS in stack are not a problem. The AI using the 2..3 DS with the AC as ship fodder and doesn't pursue subs. [It might above emperor, but I have not played at that level].

Losses to get an AC range from 0..2 subs. Figure on losing 1 per attack and you should be about right.

If I get the AC, I will pull the remaining subs that weren't needed away from the AC point. Usually the DS will return to shore for a new AC to guard, but occasionly they will target a weak/redline sub.

PF

 

[scoutsout]

I appreciate your thoughts on all this stuff - and I'm thinking about rearranging my naval build orders in my current game.

I normally start by building a bunch of destroyers, and get 'em out fast. Then I'll build a few cruisers...

In this game (Monarch level) I'm a way behind in naval power. I had to kick Korea off the planet in a nasty Arty/Inf/Cav land battle in order to get oil. I've already got Flight, Mass Production, Motorized Transportation, and I'm researching Radio, but have only had the oil for about 2 turns. (The oil was in the extreme end of the Korean empire...)

I think I'm going to build a bunch of subs and try to get them out on my naval "picket line", then follow up with the destroyers since they can catch up pretty quick...

With Korea gone I've got my continent, so any threat now will come from the sea...most likely from the Celts (#2 and Fascist...).