August 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Tuvok694]

Is there any way to save my selection of natural wonders or do I have to click through the list at every single new game?

 

[Nerevatar]

Nope, Amrunril is right. The change to content threshold literally counteracts the removal of the free amenity. Using your own example, try to compute for yourself the exact amount of amenities needed for 10 cities of 4 citizens to remain content before and after the patch and you will see what I mean. The only change to amenity they have accomplished with this patch is:
1) Harsher penalties to cities that drops below the content threshold
2) Make it extremely hard to get a bonus by sharply increase the happy threshold
3) Literally rename 0 (the previous content threshold) as -1

While 1) is a great change as it will slow down the game and make warmongering harder, 2) basically kills the usefulness of amenities above the content threshold. I think making the happy threshold higher is the right idea as we do not need more bonus to early game science output, the bonus for achieving happy and ecstatic is way too low. A 10%/30% might be a good idea given how much work you have to do to achieve it and it might give EC/WP with tier 3 buildings a purpose for late game.

As for 3), I am really really disappointed in the developers in this. I am not sure if this intentional to trick us into thinking that the free amenities for new cities are removed. If not, then the developers obviously did not bother to even sit down and do a simple computation on what they have changed. If people really care about tall vs wide balance, we really need to speak up and let them fix this.

I posted the actual math for how this change works out: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ee-amenity-they-did-not.662325/#post-15891790. Negative (and content) states are the same, but tall was actually buffed compared to wide, when it comes to positive states.

 

[overreact]

Nope, Amrunril is right. The change to content threshold literally counteracts the removal of the free amenity. Using your own example, try to compute for yourself the exact amount of amenities needed for 10 cities of 4 citizens to remain content before and after the patch and you will see what I mean.

Nope, you're looking at this incorrectly by only considering how to remain content before/after and not actually comparing the tall/wide cases. The old behavior benefited wide vs tall while the new behavior is even (in terms of amenities). Let's stay with the example of 40 citizens per empire and call the total number of amenities required to reach some level of happiness for 40 citizens `X`:

Previous:
Wide: Getting free amenities from 10 cities, so need X - 10 additional amenities to reach X.
Tall: Getting free amenities from 4 cities, so need X - 4 additional amenities to reach X.
X-10 < X-4, so Wide was generally more advantageous (at least in this sense)

New:
Wide: Getting 0 free amenities from cities, so need X additional amenities to reach X.
Tall: Getting 0 free amenities from cities, so need X additional amenities to reach X.
X == X, so Tall/Wide are generally equal (at least in this sense)

 

[AntSou]

I'm confused and I don't know who's doing the math correctly.

 

[lockstep]

I think @lockstep 's Mod might be the right approach. I've just downloaded to try. If I understand it, all it really does is make -1 Displeased, so new Cities actually start miserable and with reduced yields (unless you have at least one Luxe online or Garrison a Unit with Retainers ), and you get more pay-off if you actually get to Happy.

The most important effect of my mod is balancing wide and tall playstyles -- with the threshold for Content corrected to 0 amenities, you need the same number of amenities for, say, 10 size-4 cities or 4 size-10 cities to make them Content (20 amenities, which equals 5 different luxury resources).

 

[overreact]

I'm confused and I don't know who's doing the math correctly.

The math itself is all correct - the changes mostly remove a previous advantage given to the wide playstyle.

- Previously, a wide playstyle led to more free amenities per citizen compared to tall, which was an advantage for wide.
- The new changes address that by making both wide/tall playstyles get the same # of free amenities (none) to eliminate that wide advantage.

Probably, the removal of the free amenities needed to be balanced, so there are some reductions to the amenity thresholds.

So, I think these changes are mostly to help balance tall/wide. (also doesn't seem to make sense for wide empires to get more free amenities?)

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

Is there any way to save my selection of natural wonders or do I have to click through the list at every single new game?

If you save a map set up configuration, it'll also save your natural wonder choices.

 

[bonfireg]

Not sure if this is a bug so let me ask here - in your existing game, has the price of naturalists changed? I have a game where I bought one naturalist already, the price for the next one is still equivalent to 1400 (instead of 700) if we ignore the adjustment by speed and Theocracy.

For those who have an on-going game that haven't made any purchase of naturalists... do you see the price as 600 or 1200?

I see a price of 600.

 

[Amrunril]

The math itself is all correct - the changes mostly remove a previous advantage given to the wide playstyle.

- Previously, a wide playstyle led to more free amenities per citizen compared to tall, which was an advantage for wide.
- The new changes address that by making both wide/tall playstyles get the same # of free amenities (none) to eliminate that wide advantage.

Probably, the removal of the free amenities needed to be balanced, so there are some reductions to the amenity thresholds.

So, I think these changes are mostly to help balance tall/wide. (also doesn't seem to make sense for wide empires to get more free amenities?)

This is arguably true when it comes to bonuses for excess amenities, though I'd describe the difference as coming from threshold changes rather than free amenity changes.

When it comes to avoiding penalties, though, the "removal" of the free amenity and the change to the thresholds completely cancel each other out, resulting in no change to wide-tall balance or to any city's happiness stage.

The previous system gave one free amenity per city in the form of an amenity actually added to your total. The new system gives one free amenity per city by allowing you to have one more negative amenity before reaching any given penalty tier. The presentation has changed, but functionally and mathematically there simply isn't a difference.

 

[MrRadar]

Looks like the 'Build railroad' action got a proper icon, it shows an actual railroad now, it was just a simple road icon before iirc:

 

[Galvatron]

I'm confused and I don't know who's doing the math correctly.

No one can do math right, just mash the keys with your palm.

 

[Revanchist]

I never knew so many of you were mathfanatics as well

 

[footballciv]

Has anybody else noticed that after the update, mods enabling are complete nuts? Game doesn't respect the mods I select. It enables sometimes more, sometimes less than what I enable in the mod menu. I use a few different presets of mods, but what the game enables is not just a different preset.

Upon some further testing, it seems that when you load a game configuration, it not only loads map setting and seeds etc, but also loads the set of mods you had when the configuration was saved.

 

[hhhhhh]

Upon some further testing, it seems that when you load a game configuration, it not only loads map setting and seeds etc, but also loads the set of mods you had when the configuration was saved.

It always does this iirc.

 

[cuso210]

So soothsayers producing CO2 is a bigger change than I expected: I just had the first level of flood in the medieval era. Seems like a big hit to coastal civs/cities

 

[hhhhhh]

So soothsayers producing CO2 is a bigger change than I expected: I just had the first level of flood in the medieval era. Seems like a big hit to coastal civs/cities

So using soothsayers to wreck coastal civs can be a thing huh?

Note to self: in multiplayer games, build Kilwa Kisiwani on a coastal hill, not a flat land. (Just kidding, Kilwa has to be on coastal flat land.)

 

[Dedrytus]

So using soothsayers to wreck coastal civs can be a thing huh?

Effects of soothsayers are devastating now. One game after update I unchecked apocalypse mode because it is not fun for me anymore. I lost 3 spaceports and one city with spaceport because of falling comets. No spaceports at good production cities? Let's go conquer the world! It was too late for this. Cities were too strong for my outdated army, and my army was outdated because some resources were underwater... and some armies too... and some military complexes were lakes Religious victory was impossible because of apostles costs and a fact that some religious sites were underwater Real apocalypse.

 

[Sostratus]

I never knew so many of you were mathfanatics as well

You haven't even seen our final form!

The best ones are chop threads (example) where we try to work out the payoff of chop woods now vs later. And who can forget combat balance threads?!

 

[Kupe Navigator]

as pure historian, all this number is... all greek to me.

 

[kotpeter]

Nope, you're looking at this incorrectly by only considering how to remain content before/after and not actually comparing the tall/wide cases. The old behavior benefited wide vs tall while the new behavior is even (in terms of amenities). Let's stay with the example of 40 citizens per empire and call the total number of amenities required to reach some level of happiness for 40 citizens `X`:

Previous:
Wide: Getting free amenities from 10 cities, so need X - 10 additional amenities to reach X.
Tall: Getting free amenities from 4 cities, so need X - 4 additional amenities to reach X.
X-10 < X-4, so Wide was generally more advantageous (at least in this sense)

New:
Wide: Getting 0 free amenities from cities, so need X additional amenities to reach X.
Tall: Getting 0 free amenities from cities, so need X additional amenities to reach X.
X == X, so Tall/Wide are generally equal (at least in this sense)

This math doesn't take into account that it's much easier to get 1 amenity in 4 cities (one luxury resource), than 4 amenities in 1 city (4 luxuries, I guess?). Due to the way that luxury sources are mostly AoE-applied, wide is still largely favoured in that regard.