Auto-Build, Luxury Resources, and Quality of Life

[ls612]

And options are good Less bad. More Good.

Autobuilds reduce options.

JosEPh

This is a bit of a misreading of what is good. Is it good to have 100 (for instance) buildings with different names and pictures, but who all give +1 and +1 ? They do make more options, but I don't think I'd consider that 'good'. These are the sorts of buildings I'm trying to target with this proposal.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is a bit of a misreading of what is good. Is it good to have 100 (for instance) buildings with different names and pictures, but who all give +1 and +1 ? They do make more options, but I don't think I'd consider that 'good'. These are the sorts of buildings I'm trying to target with this proposal.

I don't mind all those options. In MY game I struggle to keep up and this makes those smaller buildings with smaller benefits (even if they are multiples of much the same even though I see a lot of minor variations in them all, particularly in various side-effects like providing a manufactured resource, access to other buildings, or whatever) still carry more option because you can find you need to interrupt building them with other immediate goals in mind.

In otherwords, better to have 10 buildings that give +1 and +1 than it is to have one building that takes the same amount of time to build as all 10 that gives +10 and +10 . This breaks things up and gives the player more choice as to when to prioritize things.

Plus, I personally think they all give the game more character and although an option (not meaning game option so much as the Privatized vs Public concept) that would allow a player to segment out some categories of buildings into an autobuild process while keeping full control over other categories of buildings would be a good way to offer better game play for everyone's vast variety of opinions on this subject.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Autobuilds reduce options.

JosEPh

They also allow us to implement game mechanics with out needing to program stuff and in a way that the AI mostly understands. This allows quick modification and building of some options. It would take a lot longer to get the Captives option in place without them.

 

[Maxima7]

This is a bit of a misreading of what is good. Is it good to have 100 (for instance) buildings with different names and pictures, but who all give +1 and +1 ? They do make more options, but I don't think I'd consider that 'good'. These are the sorts of buildings I'm trying to target with this proposal.

It's also noteworthy that the interface sucks for micromanaging. Isn't it only possible to shift click? I can't select multiples, and there's no way to set up build lists for load in advance that you could stop temporarily to build units, for example. Too much buildings to click for is not a good thing.

 

[Whisperr]

What sort of gamespeed and options are you using? Because this doesn't line up with my current game, where even my most developed cities are still racing to keep up with buildings as I discover them. I would however probably increase the building cost modifiers in the gamespeeds if we went this direction to compensate.

The game level is Emperor and the speed is Snail. I am still in the Ancient Era with now 8 cities. I recently researched Caste and switching to this civic boosted my gold to the point I can be on 100% and positive , before this I was 65% if not building wealth.

I have a small army to take out barbarian cities and I was using to cut back the Americans (my closest neighbour). I was going to leave the Americans with their capital, the holy city of Christianity, the distance to palace cost would not be a viable option to take and keep at this time.. Unfortuantely they went into revolt and the English (go figure) took over the two biggest cities.

I have been using the excess gold to turn captives into workers and settlers, and to be able to stay on 100% when I do have something to build.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have noticed a couple of times when my cities have nothing to build but it is rare probably because I often build replaced buildings before the building that replaces it. For example I always build each Administration building in turn when I feel the city can support it. Similarly if I a putting a large queue in for a city I a likely to build the harbour early on and the port towards the end.

 

[Hydromancerx]

And options are good Less bad. More Good.

Well said. Bad grammar.

Is it good to have 100 (for instance) buildings with different names and pictures, but who all give +1 and +1 ?

Yes. It also allows the game to flow more like a ramp than stairs. The more smaller intervals we have the less impact any particular building has. Which simulates the game flowing rather than great leaps each time a building is made.

Also small changes allow for greater possibilities to unlock other buildings and even have synergy of buildings. And when it comes down to it there are only so many things in the game that buildings can give you (ex. , , , , , , , , , etc) and even as we had properties like crime or disease they still are just extensions of those basic factors. However I think there is one factor that should not be underestimated and that is the players imagination.

You see we cannot make everything perfect but we can allow for the player's imagination to fill in the gaps. An icon/button of a building can be all that's needed for someone to imagine their city has a Wig Shop despite their not being any wig resource or 3D model of a wig shop. I have seen in numerous let's plays that players enjoy these little details that make the game seem more alive. For instance despite not having that bad of stats some players refused to build a Crusifiction Cross because of its real life implications. Likewise I have seen other players love making a Cheese Shop just because they love cheese in RL. This type of things cannot be underestimated when it comes to the game. It might not make logical sense to an AI but makes all the difference to a human player.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's also noteworthy that the interface sucks for micromanaging. Isn't it only possible to shift click? I can't select multiples, and there's no way to set up build lists for load in advance that you could stop temporarily to build units, for example. Too much buildings to click for is not a good thing.

Apparently you're not comfortably familiar with the ctrl button eh? Hold ctrl and select and you select at the front of the queue. Alt-select and you select that build repeating.

And you can shift select the city bar to select ALL city build queues. And you can ctrl-select the city bar to select all city build queues of the same continent.

AND the hammer symboled button up in the top left allows you to design preset build queues that can thereafter be selected by cities. Definitely something to play with if you're getting frustrated with the volume of buildings.

AND the filter buttons that have been added in c2c make the build queue setting, to me, a VERY easy affair. We've done a lot of work to make this side of the game much smoother for players so that we can have so many buildings and not have it be so problematic.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Someone should make a demo video to show how to use the city queue features.

 

[ls612]

Yes. It also allows the game to flow more like a ramp than stairs. The more smaller intervals we have the less impact any particular building has. Which simulates the game flowing rather than great leaps each time a building is made.

Also small changes allow for greater possibilities to unlock other buildings and even have synergy of buildings. And when it comes down to it there are only so many things in the game that buildings can give you (ex. , , , , , , , , , etc) and even as we had properties like crime or disease they still are just extensions of those basic factors. However I think there is one factor that should not be underestimated and that is the players imagination.

You see we cannot make everything perfect but we can allow for the player's imagination to fill in the gaps. An icon/button of a building can be all that's needed for someone to imagine their city has a Wig Shop despite their not being any wig resource or 3D model of a wig shop. I have seen in numerous let's plays that players enjoy these little details that make the game seem more alive. For instance despite not having that bad of stats some players refused to build a Crusifiction Cross because of its real life implications. Likewise I have seen other players love making a Cheese Shop just because they love cheese in RL. This type of things cannot be underestimated when it comes to the game. It might not make logical sense to an AI but makes all the difference to a human player.

You see, this is where we disagree. To me and to many others who play those elements seem like filler, a hastily constructed shim to help preserve balance. I'd like to change it so that these elements can maintain their place in the mod but be more interesting and be their own mechanic.

 

[Whisperr]

I have noticed a couple of times when my cities have nothing to build but it is rare probably because I often build replaced buildings before the building that replaces it. For example I always build each Administration building in turn when I feel the city can support it. Similarly if I a putting a large queue in for a city I a likely to build the harbour early on and the port towards the end.

This is similar to the way I play it, except I won't build things like pit traps, fortified outposts etc., unless there is threat near me like a powerful neighbour.

You see we cannot make everything perfect but we can allow for the player's imagination to fill in the gaps. An icon/button of a building can be all that's needed for someone to imagine their city has a Wig Shop despite their not being any wig resource or 3D model of a wig shop. I have seen in numerous let's plays that players enjoy these little details that make the game seem more alive. For instance despite not having that bad of stats some players refused to build a Crusifiction Cross because of its real life implications. Likewise I have seen other players love making a Cheese Shop just because they love cheese in RL. This type of things cannot be underestimated when it comes to the game. It might not make logical sense to an AI but makes all the difference to a human player.

I totally agreee. One of my recent techs was Orchards, it was interesting to see what buildings were opened up based on the resources in my cities. Alot of thought has gone into the pairing of resources to create these buildings.


These are the problems for me if most buildings are auto-built and the ones that are not have long build times.

* I am forced to build buildings that I wouldn't normally build.

* I have no control over when a building is built in a city. If my people are unhappy I don't want more buildings built that will make this worse. If I am hurting for gold I don't want buildings with high maintenace costs built until I have that under control.

* If we only have long build times and I need to slip a building in the front of a building already in progress, there is a chance I will lose some of that production before the inserted building is built.

* If you take away the micro management of the buildings, set 3 buildings that will take 10 rounds each to build, what is there left to do each round? Except to move annoying workers, upgrading a trail path to a mud path to a road and on and on. Or if Im lucky I may have some excitement and my culture may grow out a square or two and I have some improvements to build. We can't always be at war.

 

[Maxima7]

Apparently you're not comfortably familiar with the ctrl button eh? Hold ctrl and select and you select at the front of the queue. Alt-select and you select that build repeating.

And you can shift select the city bar to select ALL city build queues. And you can ctrl-select the city bar to select all city build queues of the same continent.

AND the hammer symboled button up in the top left allows you to design preset build queues that can thereafter be selected by cities. Definitely something to play with if you're getting frustrated with the volume of buildings.

AND the filter buttons that have been added in c2c make the build queue setting, to me, a VERY easy affair. We've done a lot of work to make this side of the game much smoother for players so that we can have so many buildings and not have it be so problematic.

*facepalm* lol

 

[Necratoid]

(Please keep in mind its been a while for me so some things maybe off, specifically I stopped playing when I suddenly needed to download a program for the privilege of downloading C2C. I also play at the slowest speed... a new one has since been added I think)

Though it be coding heavy... I think the best way to balance the want for auto buildings and the want to experience each new building is as follows... prototypes buildings.

This means the first time you build it takes forever (on the slowest game speeds), Likely because its being reserached from an idea with low context. The next time it takes less time to build and the next less time... until its auto build, as its such well know thing as a society is doesn't need to be organized. Please keep in mind turns take hundreds of years or longer... on average... for much on the game. Having to relearn how to catch bugs after every hurricane from scratch is madness.

Basically have a (hidden?) counter that lowers hammer costs each times its built. You can use the same idea for building trees. Basically if you built the previous version you get X build points towards the next rev of that building. This is justified as the job having trained apprentices or the idea spreading around a common knowledge.

The buildings it applies to are up for debate, but should include any that are all about concepts or jobs with little infrastructure (stick/rock gather, counting sticks, fire pit)

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To those conplaining about Buildings needing larger costs: Try playing at a slower game speed. They aren't there exclsively to let you get more animals for buildings.

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Be careful with the build 'X' in 'Y' cities events... depending on map size this can be amazingly useless to include.. For example needing 13 cities with X building for classical era structures. I don't tend to have that many cities until the medevil era.

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To answer the question of the roughly steady player count:
C2C is a BETA. Each new version adds lots and lots of new stuff. This means C2C never really stablizies. You can't actually recommend it to people unless they are willing to subject themselves to having to relearn the game every time you get a new version. Sometimes, this is bad enough that I have to archive binge on gorum to figure out what that stupid new icon of game changing importance is for... let alone what is actually does. One of the main issues I've had is that while the game marches on the Civpedia tends toward stagnation.

I don't think the player volume will really change until you actually put out a version that platoes off and is concept stable and well documented. The only updates are bug fixes. By its nature C2C is a swirling malenstrome of every changing ideas.. which means this isn't likely to change. That and this mod has (historically) has tended towards using more system resources than most any game on the market. Which auto limits the player base... add in an average game taking dozens of hours for a single play through...

So your player base is gamers with Civ IV (Bts), a good computer, lots of time on their hands... and a williness to force themselves to relearn the game by brute force every two months.

Add in that new versions (historical) override your game options and there are so very many to change back... Seriously at some point I got an option that autopasses my turns... this has tripled my unit loses and force me to reload an absurd number of times. I still can't find it to change it back.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You see, this is where we disagree. To me and to many others who play those elements seem like filler, a hastily constructed shim to help preserve balance. I'd like to change it so that these elements can maintain their place in the mod but be more interesting and be their own mechanic.

Actually the majority of them I put a lot of thought into. And if by hasty you mean finally get around to doing 2 years later, then yeah I am "hasty". As for balance I admit a lot are not ment for balance at all but are made either to ...

A. See how it would work within the ecosystem of the game.

B. Because I personally would like to see it in the game.

C. I saw it in another game (or mod) and wanted to adapt it to C2C.

D. Someone had a good idea so I made it.

E. Another team member requested it.

Note I am not opposed to making existing buildings more unique in their stats. In fact I frequently tweak buildings to better balance them. But what I don't want to do is throw away buildings just because they have the same stats as another building. That's like saying everyone should eat one type of food because it satisfies hunger.

To answer the question of the roughly steady player count:
C2C is a BETA. Each new version adds lots and lots of new stuff. This means C2C never really stablizies. You can't actually recommend it to people unless they are willing to subject themselves to having to relearn the game every time you get a new version. Sometimes, this is bad enough that I have to archive binge on gorum to figure out what that stupid new icon of game changing importance is for... let alone what is actually does. One of the main issues I've had is that while the game marches on the Civpedia tends toward stagnation.

I don't think the player volume will really change until you actually put out a version that platoes off and is concept stable and well documented. The only updates are bug fixes. By its nature C2C is a swirling malenstrome of every changing ideas.. which means this isn't likely to change. That and this mod has (historically) has tended towards using more system resources than most any game on the market. Which auto limits the player base... add in an average game taking dozens of hours for a single play through...

So your player base is gamers with Civ IV (Bts), a good computer, lots of time on their hands... and a williness to force themselves to relearn the game by brute force every two months.

Add in that new versions (historical) override your game options and there are so very many to change back... Seriously at some point I got an option that autopasses my turns... this has tripled my unit loses and force me to reload an absurd number of times. I still can't find it to change it back.

Actually the fact that the game is in constant flux is one of the great parts about it. I love both finding and adding new things as well as having to adapt my game to those new things. Every game is different and even if we were not updating every game is different. There are so many factors in the game that a player should never get bored (overwhelmed maybe, but not bored).

 

[Galacticat42]

@ls612

I have also been thinking about inverse crime and pollution. Such as bonus "perks" if you get your "crime" and "pollution" into the negative range. Such as "Fresh Air" gives you health and a "Safe City" gives more production, science, health and/or happiness.

This would also mean since cities usually tart out with extremely low pollution that they would be healthier at the start. Possibly simulating the closer relationship to the land.

One thing I must state. I never did get how these added properties like Crime or pollution work. And worse, what the numbers even mean! I can see negatives and numbers that exceed 500 yet I have no bloody clue as to what that can entail.

I HIGHLY recommend pretty-ing up those numbers. Make them into percentage values. 0% means you're all good and those things are non-existent. 100% means all hell is unleashed. Why they have to be some arbitrary number is beyond me.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I HIGHLY recommend pretty-ing up those numbers. Make them into percentage values. 0% means you're all good and those things are non-existent. 100% means all hell is unleashed. Why they have to be some arbitrary number is beyond me.

I have been experimenting with replacing them with fuel gauges which use colour and words to show how things are going red for danger or getting worse and green for good or getting better. Similar to the revolution index one. However finding out what is good or bad is proving difficult.

 

[ls612]

One thing I must state. I never did get how these added properties like Crime or pollution work. And worse, what the numbers even mean! I can see negatives and numbers that exceed 500 yet I have no bloody clue as to what that can entail.

I HIGHLY recommend pretty-ing up those numbers. Make them into percentage values. 0% means you're all good and those things are non-existent. 100% means all hell is unleashed. Why they have to be some arbitrary number is beyond me.

Properties currently work by taking the base growth or decay rate, and then modifying that based on what the carrying capacity is for that property. For all properties nowadays that capacity is 10 times the base rate (which may or may not be the displayed change per turn). As you get closer to that capacity the rate of change decreases, and as you get farther away it gets greater.

That is horribly documented and is not at all made clear in the hover text, something that we should talk to AIAndy about rectifying.

 

[ls612]

Actually the majority of them I put a lot of thought into. And if by hasty you mean finally get around to doing 2 years later, then yeah I am "hasty". As for balance I admit a lot are not ment for balance at all but are made either to ...

A. See how it would work within the ecosystem of the game.

B. Because I personally would like to see it in the game.

C. I saw it in another game (or mod) and wanted to adapt it to C2C.

D. Someone had a good idea so I made it.

E. Another team member requested it.

I'm not saying hastily as in that you just came up with it on the spur of the moment, what I'm saying is that each new batch of 10 buildings like this changes the balance somewhat, which either means that it fixes an existing imbalance or creates a new one which needs to be fixed some other way (like increasing University costs to 50 !). This does not make for fun gameplay IMO and is primarily responsible for the radical game-breaking shifts every few months or so. This prevents games from getting far.

I'm just pointing out here some issues with the mod and how to fix them, it is nothing against you personally, which is how I feel you are taking it.

 

[Snofru1]

I like the huge amount of buildings and the diversity that comes with it (great work, Hydromancerx!). There are some situations, though, where I like to see buildings being auto-built but only in later eras when those cheap buildings have been invented 2 or more eras before:

1. When I found new cities in the later eras. This is partly solved by the Pioneers etc.
2. When I conquer a city in the later game.
3. When my cities get nuclear meltdowns which occurs often to me in late-games as I tend to build all those hammer-creating buildings that can explode...

 

[Necratoid]

Hydromancerx... your entirely missing that particular point.

Yes... you do enjoy all that. However that is why your playing/modding this game in the first place. You actually fit player description I gave. My point was that this was EXACTLY why the player base is so stable by numbers. It's a self limiting player base.

I consider the SVN to be the 'hardcore' group that likes the ever changing rules and law of physics. People as a whole are creatures of habit... this mod caters to those that like things more chaotic. Seriously, just getting through the options before starting a game is more effort than the typical 'casual gamer' will want to spend. That is before you consider that its a forum crawl to discover things like: 1) best played at X speed and slower or 2) choose custom game not 'Play Now' for best experience.

I'm not saying the raw changeability is a bad thing, its just that it does restrict its own player base.