Auto-Build, Luxury Resources, and Quality of Life

Necratoid, you do make a very good point about the 'forum crawl'. Seems like someone should put together a document on 'What you should know before you start your first C2C game' that is made obtrusively available from any and all download portals.
 
Hydromancerx... your entirely missing that particular point.

Yes... you do enjoy all that. However that is why your playing/modding this game in the first place. You actually fit player description I gave. My point was that this was EXACTLY why the player base is so stable by numbers. It's a self limiting player base.

I consider the SVN to be the 'hardcore' group that likes the ever changing rules and law of physics. People as a whole are creatures of habit... this mod caters to those that like things more chaotic. Seriously, just getting through the options before starting a game is more effort than the typical 'casual gamer' will want to spend. That is before you consider that its a forum crawl to discover things like: 1) best played at X speed and slower or 2) choose custom game not 'Play Now' for best experience.

I'm not saying the raw changeability is a bad thing, its just that it does restrict its own player base.

I would say it is a bad thing because it restricts our player base. There is a reason mods like Rhyes and FfH were far more popular than C2C is today (even though we are the most popular mod today). Some of the main start things you mention aren't fixable (Play now is coded in the EXE so we can't change it), but in terms of how much stuff changes and how drastic those changes are we can do a lot to limit that and make the mod appeal to more people. It helps that we try and make everything polished before a release and have a freeze period to fix bugs, but it still doesn't solve the base issue, which is what I'm trying to do here.
 
Necratoid, you do make a very good point about the 'forum crawl'. Seems like someone should put together a document on 'What you should know before you start your first C2C game' that is made obtrusively available from any and all download portals.

That's what the Player's Documentation and the FAQs thread are supposed to be about. :hammer2:
 
Yeah, but those come across just a bit different than a very short list of 10+ items or so that all players should know if they are trying to come into this from Vanilla BtS.

Those present themselves as having a LOT of information to offer and who knows what is really necessary to the impatient person about to play. Such a proposed document, however, would address the main things they really needed to know before they begin. Like - "Yes its going to take a bit of time to load and it may not seem like its doing anything for a minute or two, and 'DON'T use the PLAY NOW method of beginning a game!" Just cover the minimum of main points, that sort of thing.
 
I would say it is a bad thing because it restricts our player base. There is a reason mods like Rhyes and FfH were far more popular than C2C is today (even though we are the most popular mod today). Some of the main start things you mention aren't fixable (Play now is coded in the EXE so we can't change it), but in terms of how much stuff changes and how drastic those changes are we can do a lot to limit that and make the mod appeal to more people. It helps that we try and make everything polished before a release and have a freeze period to fix bugs, but it still doesn't solve the base issue, which is what I'm trying to do here.

When was FfH created? People move on to new games as time goes on, and then it becomes harder to market it out to snag new people. I've seen the same for other mods. For example, on the Total War forums, the section for Third Age TW gets about the same view every month, and the difference in downloads for version 2 & 3 (more than a year apart) is not much. In fact, if I look at the patches, it's identical. The changes from each of the versions and the mods for it don't radically change the game play like this mod either.
 
(like increasing University costs to 50 :gold:!).

It is at a base of -20 :gold: with +25 :science: (plus all the other bonuses from techs). This has been changed when I added the 5 Eduction buildings; Private School, High School,City College, School Bus Station and Department of Education [NW]. Which was at SVN v5197 on April 4th 2013.
 
That's right. There ARE reasons FFH2 and Rhyes MIGHT have been more popular than C2C is today but I think you've mislabeled the cause, ls612.

These, I think, are the more applicable causes:
1) Those mods were in their peak when there wasn't a massively competing CivV. Considering how much less overall activity there is in the Civ IV forum in comparison to how things were rolling pre-civV, our success rate here in C2C is astonishing!

2) Those two mods had a vastly different way to go about playing civ from the base game. Particularly FFH2 being fantasy, it was sure to have the ability to capture a HUGE fantasy fanbase that even Vanilla Civ only somewhat inspired (just enough to purchase and play a game or two) until this was made available to them.

3) Keeping things simple, almost annoyingly so, they were able to have a fairly complete picture in a fairly short amount of time. However, honestly, if FFH2 had not had such a constrained minimalistic approach, I probably would've taken all my efforts there rather than C2C.

But while it inspired me with great expansive ideas, it also frustrated me in how it went to such a shallow level with those ideas and really eliminated the point of utilizing those ideas in the game at all by approaching them with such basic implementation. At the same time, they did have those things quickly done and polished out in the large scale scheme of their mod so they were able to do what they did in a smaller frame of time and then tweak for balance and wrap things up.

C2C, however, is the pinnacle of all diversity, influenced by all modding that has ever been done for Civ IV, including elements of both of those mods, but taken to the next level I think most of wish those mods had taken it to. It's a work in progress and will continue to be for a long time. FFH2 and Rhyes (even AND) were able to get to a point where the primary developer said... OK. We're pretty much there.



Seriously, if C2C were in its current state, competing side by side with Rhyes and FFH at their peak... do you think there'd be much of a challenge to C2C now? Sure we wouldn't have a monopoly or anything (we don't now) as there's always those who gravitate towards one thing or another, but in terms of pure quality, we're right up there with them imo. And getting closer and closer and preparing to surpass entirely. Unfortunately, as we go about doing this, CivIV itself begins to appear more and more archaic to those who've moved on to CivV. I loved Civ II but looking at it now, even though they'd achieved the multi-maps and so many things we're striving for here, the rustic quality is just .... toooo rustic. Perhaps the sad thing is that by the time we're where we want to be with this, Civ IV will be the same way entirely. But that's when we take our GAME structure and migrate it to something more... high speed and graphically intense.
 
These, I think, are the more applicable causes:
1) Those mods were in their peak when there wasn't a massively competing CivV. Considering how much less overall activity there is in the Civ IV forum in comparison to how things were rolling pre-civV, our success rate here in C2C is astonishing!

Yeah we have to compete with Civ5 mods as well now.

3) Keeping things simple, almost annoyingly so, they were able to have a fairly complete picture in a fairly short amount of time. However, honestly, if FFH2 had not had such a constrained minimalistic approach, I probably would've taken all my efforts there rather than C2C.

Well there is always making a C2C - Fantasy modmod. ;)
 
I like the huge amount of buildings and the diversity that comes with it (great work, Hydromancerx!). There are some situations, though, where I like to see buildings being auto-built but only in later eras when those cheap buildings have been invented 2 or more eras before:


  1. [*]When I found new cities in the later eras. This is partly solved by the Pioneers etc.
  2. When I conquer a city in the later game.
  3. When my cities get nuclear meltdowns which occurs often to me in late-games as I tend to build all those hammer-creating buildings that can explode...

This is part of what i am trying to get at with the balanced era start stuff. If we can do that we have a handle on what should be free in new cities and when. Then we can remove the python code associated with those units because it will all be in the XML.
 
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