Avoiding fights when using liberty policies

sylvanllewelyn

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I noticed that post-patch, city-spamming with liberty is just asking for a fight, or four, even if you don't have four neighbours. As soon as you are the one with the most cities, everyone hates you for "building cities too aggressively" and attacks you. The ancient era then becomes a test of how well you can fight off hordes of warriors using archers and cities. So far I can but that's not a given.

It gets to the point where I am now tempted to go tradition for peaceful wins, or honour for warmongering wins. Why go liberty at all?
 
Well, I've found that picking a friend or two for DoF's helps a lot with that situation. If you do it just before your expansion wave hits you'll secure yourself a solid trading partner, often for much of the game. This is less so at Deity, but still a big deal.

As well, liberty allows you to rapidly expand into resources, then trade them to your neighbors to mitigate their hate to you, or to the player beyond them...giving them a threat to another border when they decide to try and get aggressive with you. If the AI's expand into them, you often seem to get stuck in a position where you can't even trade all your resources, because they picked up a single copy of so many types of resources with their nearly unlimited ability to expand.

In the long term, expansion results in lots of gold and production. But it is indeed just a playstyle. But there are definitely payoffs for the wars that often result of expansion too!
 
I noticed that post-patch, city-spamming with liberty is just asking for a fight, or four, even if you don't have four neighbours. As soon as you are the one with the most cities, everyone hates you for "building cities too aggressively" and attacks you. The ancient era then becomes a test of how well you can fight off hordes of warriors using archers and cities. So far I can but that's not a given.

It gets to the point where I am now tempted to go tradition for peaceful wins, or honour for warmongering wins. Why go liberty at all?

I've found exactly the same as you. It seems that if you found a third city by say 2000BC or early it's just asking for invasions from everyone around you. Even though you can bribe them and sometimes get them to friendly... I feel like I've wasted a lot of production and resources to just try to get that rapid expansion going.

Personally I do pretty much what you suggested in 90%+ of my games. Grab selected policies from tradition and honor (honor isn't bad for peaceful approaches either). I find instead of having 3 or 4 mini cities by 2000BC, I have 1 powerful capital and 1 mini city instead. I then opt to expand (if possible) or invade (if necessary). The capital is in a much better position to power through wonders and take advantage of things like universities and NCs too. Liberty isn't useless by any means but at this approach seems to work out far better for my particular playstyle :).
 
It's true the AI loves to attack when you expand. But if you survive this, you're in great shape. These early wars usually start with the AI dogpile but end with me taking several cities from them. It's all about getting those few cities up ASAP so you can 1) get some iron and 2) have some population (i.e. production) to get some early units out.

Early archery helps as well. 2 archers 1 warrior or something like that is enough to fend off a lot of early attacks. By the time they are coming in greater numbers or better units, you definitely want to have a few swordsmen, so plan for cash for upgrades.

It can certainly get dicey when you get jumped my multiple AIs, but is also a very fun and exciting part of the game. Tradition/honor seem "safer" but the reward for a successful liberty opener is very high. I'm with Vexing.
 
Liberty is fine if all you want to do is war. I guess one of my problems with it is I get very tired of just rapid expand, invade neighbour, forget building wonders or any other interesting playstyle, forget national wonders.

Once you get used to it (it took me about 3 games) it's very easy to survive, invade, and win on Deity with liberty openers.

The main challenge left to me is to actually play building, peaceful styles on Deity. For me, that means tradition combined with honor, piety, patronage, or commerce (once in a while).

Also, I'm not remotely convinced that liberty is the best branch at all. I think people just bandwagon and get addicted to it because of it's ease of use. It's pretty darn obvious how to take advantage of a free settler or worker. It's not nearly as obvious how to take advantage of some of the tradition options out there.

In my experience, with liberty you can have 1 or 2 more cities by 2000BC than a tradition start. However tradition will have more science and can have an early wonder by then (oracle, HG) and / or the NC. Further you'll be in much better financial and happiness shape cause you can trade more. By 1000BC, you can usually catch up in cities, finish off tradition to get the growth and usually have just as many if not more great people. Liberty has to use its GP to grab a wonder (HS, PT) cause it's not in as good of shape to build it. Tradition can usually hard build it and save those GP for something more useful.

Like I said earlier, it's just how you play. If you like doing the same thing every game and enjoy wars with the AI, liberty is just fine. If you want to try something different, tradition is better.
 
I noticed that post-patch, city-spamming with liberty is just asking for a fight, or four, even if you don't have four neighbours. As soon as you are the one with the most cities, everyone hates you for "building cities too aggressively" and attacks you. The ancient era then becomes a test of how well you can fight off hordes of warriors using archers and cities. So far I can but that's not a given.

It gets to the point where I am now tempted to go tradition for peaceful wins, or honour for warmongering wins. Why go liberty at all?

I don't think I have much input (except for the fact that Liberty is such a good branch) but I am curious how many cities and how quickly you are putting up.
 
No Meritocracy Great Person now requires you to complete the whole branch (6 policies) in order to get that GE for a free wonder rush, so Liberty isn't the best tree anymore. I'd say Tradition, for massive growth boosts, even thought Landed Elite kinda sucks now, didn't it used to be 1 happiness for 2 pop? Always thought the left side of Liberty sucked.
 
Liberty is amazing. Free settler, free worker, free golden age, +1 happiness per city and a free GP. I think it is the best tree..
 
No Meritocracy Great Person now requires you to complete the whole branch (6 policies) in order to get that GE for a free wonder rush, so Liberty isn't the best tree anymore. I'd say Tradition, for massive growth boosts...

tradition requires the same 6 policies to get that "massive growth boost"
considering how much the value of wonders has increased, getting a free GE is worth a lot more.
 
I agree that it's more or less impossible to REX these days on Deity due to the AI, but going Liberty lets you avoid dropping about 180:c5production: on a Settler and a Worker at a period in time when production is very dear.

Unless you're building Temples in several cities or have a UB that can be acquired via Legalism, you're not getting that back from Aristocracy, Oligarchy and Legalism.

Meritocracy generally gets you the same :c5happy: returns as Monarchy, and Republic's :c5production: is just better than Monarchy's :c5gold: now unless you go hard vertical.

The net result is that Tradition is the better tree if you plan to go for something like a Hanging Gardens game, and Liberty is better if you're going for buildings to maximize raw :c5science: via Universities or raw :c5culture: output in a Culture game. I can see how a Hanging Gardens game might be optimal for Diplomacy with Arabia, but for all other combinations of civs and win conditions it seems to me that Liberty is going to come out on top.
 
AI is more aggressive in early game than before period.

I was playing Rome; early on Rome DOWed Gaundi.
A few turns later I DOW Gaundi for founding a city in intended first ring. (I only had 2 cities)
A few turns later I see some American Warriors heading south seemingly towards the city, but while still at war with him America DOWs me and rescues Gaundi.
At that point I restarted on a new map.

Second game: In early game a single German spear is marching around my 2nd city near my border and out of the blue DOWs me. It shouldn't have had visibilty to see that the city had no military nearby but even if it did; a single spear is really no threat to a city. I had a cash reserve of over 500 gold I was planning on using to bribe a city state, but rushed a unit in both cities and made short work out of that Spear and their second wave of Warriors that came near my capital (where my military was stationed).

So it's not particularly suprizing that it's DOWing quicker when you actually do something it doesn't like.

As to policies:
I'm finding I first prefer base Tradition; then I go thru several Liberty policies; (by starting with Tradition I get a lot more culture early to go thru Liberty faster.) At some point after I have Philology, I go back to Tradition. My policy plan is why settle for ONLY tradition or ONLY liberty when you can get both.

I'm basically doing the 2 City National College thing; 2nd city free from Liberty; Library in capital built, Library in other city cash rushed.
 
tradition requires the same 6 policies to get that "massive growth boost"
considering how much the value of wonders has increased, getting a free GE is worth a lot more.

You could also argue that aristocracy is worth a lot more since the value of wonders has increased.

I agree that it's more or less impossible to REX these days on Deity due to the AI, but going Liberty lets you avoid dropping about 180:c5production: on a Settler and a Worker at a period in time when production is very dear.

Although I usually agree with you, this time I don't :). Assuming the tradition player is going to actually build a settler that early on (which would be rather foolish IMO as it kind of defeats the purpose) you are correct. However is much more efficient to purchase that settler and / or workers if you need them. So you are actually saving gold, not production. There are items that a tradition player can delay or need not purchase in the same quantity as the liberty player (e.g., libraries, monuments, temples, additional workers for those extra cities, etc).

Meritocracy generally gets you the same :c5happy: returns as Monarchy, and Republic's :c5production: is just better than Monarchy's :c5gold: now unless you go hard vertical.

That isn't really fair as you are saying that monarchy isn't as good as 2 separate policies from liberty. If it is true (and I agree that it is) that monarchy provides as much happy as meritocracy, then is handily beats meritocracy. Meritocracy requires trade routes. Monarchy requires nothing. Meritocracy either is going to cost you gold on road maintenance and lots of worker time to set up early or is going to be delated greatly until the trade routes can actually pay for themselves. Monarchy makes you money and applies instantly. Win-win for monarchy.

TBH I think that meritocracy actually has the most in common with landed elite. Both provide ~1:c5happy: per city and both kick in about the same time (unless as I said you are willing to accept the money losses from meritocracy early). Meritocracy and landed elite are both really weak early game policies and just marginal mid game policies. They are okay but there are far better ones out there.

Republic is an okay policy but it is kind of necessary to make up for liberty lacking a decent early game happiness policy. When you play as liberty and get that settler or 2 out fast, your growth is stunted because your happiness is capped, unless you've got a great area and every city can settle a unique luxury. In which case you have to keep those luxuries instead of trading them for gold. So to get those size 1 and 2 doing something useful, they need the republic's production boost.

A tradition build, on the other hand, can grab monarchy to easily mitigate a lack on unique luxuries and keep going. Republic may grant 3 or 4 extra :c5production: but a tradition captial can easily produce a way more than that because it's simply much bigger. Secondly your foundling cities can also keep growing and because of the delay in founding you can get your workers over there and get those tiles upgraded.

Also city placement is easier with tradition. Not only do those rapid popping borders help the capital to get those key tiles in your area to work, it also helps your other cities. Found a liberty city with key tiles 2 to 3 hexes away? Risky. The same with tradition? Far less risky as you can opt to grab legalism for monuments. Don't need it? Save legalism for something better.

The net result is that Tradition is the better tree if you plan to go for something like a Hanging Gardens game, and Liberty is better if you're going for buildings to maximize raw :c5science: via Universities or raw :c5culture: output in a Culture game.

Why would they get more raw science or culture? On the science front its intuitive. A tradition player will have a larger captial, and therefore get more out of a captial library and the NC, which BTW they save turns on thanks to aristocracy.

Liberty's +1:c5culture:/city is okay but that doesn't really mean they have more culture. Liberty players have to build monuments and temples the same as everybody else. Oh except that tradition can get 4 of those buildings for free. Liberty doesn't mean you have more cities than tradition. It means you have more cities than tradition for 30 turns or so. Also probably about the same population all the way through.

Honor also provides more happiness and more culture than liberty. Oligarchy synergizes well with it. Not to mention a free GA (from the GG). Piety synergizes well with tradition too. It accelerate happiness through those free buildings allowing rapid growth.

I don't mean to rant but to me liberty is just so-so and quite replacable.
 
Liberty -> Tradition after philosophy is discovered seems very strong to me. That 4 city bump to culture available quite early is pretty awesome.

I'm finishing off a diety/standard/marathon/inland sea with Hiawatha (science, but really conquest, I just left 1 around for kicks), and it worked out very well. Capital went scout->scout->monument (rush bought granary)->settler->worker->settler. Capital and first expansion settled on luxuries, so workers weren't needed early, ended up getting both scouts turned into archers. Traded each luxury for 720 g, rush bought granaries in each city as the funds were available, and built monuments first in each city -> philosophy & legalism came in just around the time the 4th city finished its monument. Double my culture? Yes please!

Acquired one early military city state with a unique luxury for happiness and military -- paired with one rush-bought wall to fend off an early DoW from Darius (who ended up being the first to lose his capital), and the game was smooth sailing from there on. I barely built a military unit the entire game after the opening, thanks to my one (and later two) military CSs. Policy path was liberty->free settler->free worker->tradition (need border pops to hook up forest trade routes)->honor (barb hunting *much* faster, and that's good gold this stage in the game - plus I needed the later honor policies for happiness after conquest)->free culture buildings. The free GE when I finished off liberty got me some wonder or other, don't remember which, but it wasn't crucial to win. Hiawatha is a freaking tech & production powerhouse once you get down rationalism - those 1/2/2/2 forest tiles are amazing.

Although it's easier in later wars, marathon is harder than standard speed for the initial DoW rush (which is inevitable with rapid expansion, and relatively earlier on marathon) - you *have* to have gold to rush-buy units or walls, there isn't really time to both build units and expand. This is why settling luxuries is so important to basic survival for a REX type game with liberty.

Liberty is an awesome opening branch. It's value rapidly declines, in my opinion, whereas Tradition is just as strong if delayed (often stronger re: free culture buildings). I'm personally a fan of a mixed policy approach - dallying in more than one tree - rather than beelining the finishers.

@OP: I don't see any way to prevent early wars with a rapid expansion. The best you can do is be prepared for it - the AI sees you as a sitting duck. Trade with your close neighbours if you're worried about them declaring on you - it has seemed to help me avoid getting multiple DoWs - it's typically the AIs I haven't traded with that paint the bullseye on my forehead.
 
I agree with the mix:

Here is my order in my current game:

Tradition opener
Liberty opener
Free settler
Free worker
2 Free Temples + next 2 cities get free Monuments as built
+1 production per city
1/2 unhappiness in capital + more gold.

My next planned policy is -1 unhappiness per city (all but my newest city already have a trade connection and I'll be building a road to it shortly.) Chances are I'll follow that with the free GA + Great Person since I've spent so much time slightly negative that I'm nowhere near a natural GA.
 
Liberty Policy track:

Liberty->worker->Settler->Representation (lower culture costs to expand past the 2nd city)-> (Republic or Meritocracy depending on - got wheel?)-> finish, get GE->pop (Notre Dame or Porcelain Tower)

add 2 city NC (easy) with 2-4 total unique lux's to start. Add Hagia Sophia for the other of ND/PT.

One+ RA(s) = into Renaissance (before turn 100 easily with more RAs) far faster than Tradition.

Aristocracy only pays for itself (wonders have culture) if you can build(!!!) multiple wonders/national wonders in the game. You'll likely only hard build 2-3 wonders the entire game in a standard/larger map, depending on what you're aiming for. (the 2nd and 3rd are questionable, so you're relying on the National Wonders to pick up the slack)

So, tradition starts are 'ok' for Emperor or lower diff levels, an OCC/small empire culture game or very small maps that have very few AIs.

though, if a tradition starter spends too much time trying for wonders, they'll forget to build an army and lose.

Tradition + Honour is good. (Ensures Oligarchy is worthwhile) Liberty + Piety or Liberty + Rationalism is good. Liberty + Honour isn't too useful, given the garrison unit maintenance costs. Tradition + Piety can be good if you kept small.

So it all depends on the type of empire you want...
 
However is much more efficient to purchase that settler and / or workers if you need them. So you are actually saving gold, not production.

500 :c5gold: is a lot to throw at a Settler. It's a more attractive play than it was, given the rebalance in early building :c5production: costs, the new :c5gold:->:c5production: conversion factors on early buildings and the weakness of city-states early on.

I've been known to buy a Worker in a city where I need to hook up luxuries and can't reasonably walk a Worker over or steal, but I try to exhaust all other options (and plan ahead on my steal) before resorting to purchasing the Worker.

That isn't really fair as you are saying that monarchy isn't as good as 2 separate policies from liberty. If it is true (and I agree that it is) that monarchy provides as much happy as meritocracy, then is handily beats meritocracy.

Yes, but the problem is that Republic beats the pants off of the :c5gold: from Monarchy (it isn't even remotely close once you expand), and the Tradition branch has dead policies. Monarchy alone is better than either, but the combination of Republic + Meritocracy is far superior to say, Oligarchy + Monarchy or Landed Elite + Monarchy.

A tradition build, on the other hand, can grab monarchy to easily mitigate a lack on unique luxuries and keep going. Republic may grant 3 or 4 extra :c5production: but a tradition captial can easily produce a way more than that because it's simply much bigger.

It's a question of what you can build. CiV still has the same basic problem that it always has: you want the first tier buildings and Universities everywhere because they're :c5production: efficient and cheap to maintain. Everything else is situational. Further, you get far more :c5production: per unit of population in many small cities than in a few large ones due to the way the :c5food: mechanics work. The only exception is if you managed to build the Hanging Gardens amongst a bunch of Hills. The result is that in almost every case the small cities are much more efficient producers. You have fewer citizens but they work better, more efficient tiles, and the :c5production: they make gets sunk into more efficient buildings.

Why would they get more raw science or culture? On the science front its intuitive. A tradition player will have a larger captial, and therefore get more out of a captial library and the NC, which BTW they save turns on thanks to aristocracy.

The :c5science: math has always favored spamming cities and Scientists on several levels. First of all, a Scientist under Secularism is nearly eight times as efficient at producing :c5science: than a citizen assigned to a tile. Second, adding more cities running Scientists yields up more Great Scientists. Each additional city past the first is marginally less productive, but it's still sensible to slap down another city as long as that city will end up yielding a Great Scientist that you otherwise wouldn't get before the end of the game.

Liberty's +1:c5culture:/city is okay but that doesn't really mean they have more culture. Liberty players have to build monuments and temples the same as everybody else. Oh except that tradition can get 4 of those buildings for free.

Right, but since you want four Opera Houses in a Culture game, you can't go very far in Tradition due to tech limitations. In any other game, Temples are pretty hard to justify due to the :c5gold: maintenance unless you have a Temple-replacement UB or get something more expensive like a Wat from Legalism.

But again tech limitations are a problem there, which forces you to run the Tradition/Liberty split in order to get the UBs.

If you're not getting a powerful UB from Legalism, a GE is a lot to give up in order to get a couple of lousy Temples from Legalism and pick up Monarchy. I can see how you might want to just take the four top-quality Liberty policies and go elsewhere, but there isn't any combination of policies in Tradition that's going to compete with what that GE can do.

Games exist where taking Tradition itself for the border pops is sensible, and it's best to recognize that your map is going to compel this early. Taking Tradition to accelerate early policies is a horrible long-run play that incurs substantial late-game costs, but sometimes you don't have much of a choice. That's one of the stronger arguments for aggressive scouting; if it's going to be one of those games, you want to know soon enough to take Tradition with the first policy.
 
CiV still has the same basic problem that it always has: you want the first tier buildings and Universities everywhere because they're :c5production: efficient and cheap to maintain.

The result is that in almost every case the small cities are much more efficient producers. You have fewer citizens but they work better, more efficient tiles, and the :c5production: they make gets sunk into more efficient buildings.

In a static, infinite horizon model I think it's clear that more land and more cities is better. The problem is whether this is still true after considering your neighbours:

1) In the initial expansion stage, the more hammers you spend on settlers, the more you then have to spend on units to defend that land. You can expand as aggressively as you can until that inflection point after which your unit/cities ratio is too low to survive. What I am wondering is whether you actually end up with more cities and land during the expansion phase if you delay your expansion by going honour and attacking someone.

2) After expansion stabilises, you are still stuck with more neighbours and more resentful ones. Even in the static sense, you need to spend more gold per turn maintaining and upgrading units. I wonder whether the need to maintain a larger military and having less favourable trading opportunities actually makes smaller empires better. Having less citizens certainly doesn't help.
 
2) After expansion stabilises, you are still stuck with more neighbours and more resentful ones. Even in the static sense, you need to spend more gold per turn maintaining and upgrading units. I wonder whether the need to maintain a larger military and having less favourable trading opportunities actually makes smaller empires better. Having less citizens certainly doesn't help.


I feel this point ignores an important factor: Some of your neighbors will expand next to your borders, no matter how small you are, and immediately resent your proximity. Ceasar and Napolean come to mind in particular for this. Then they will use their large hammer advantages to make a truckload of units, and since your empire is small it's hard to keep up. Being smaller only makes you less likely to be DOW'd by the non-warmongers.
 
From my experience, Representation is one of the best policies in the game, even in a 4-city-empire. Social policies are extremely helpful for every type of victory, so I find it difficult to justify other paths.
 
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