AZ-01: Donut World

[Rex Tyrannus]

First off, Immortals are an awesome UU, if you're bent on warmongering and your speed is epic. Normal speed obsoletes them too quickly. (What speed are we?) If epic, priority one must be to find horses.

Next, cows are a fantastic resource, giving both gold and hammers. The gems, while giving a boat-load of gold, isn't necessarily better than the cow you'd give up to settle where the scout started. Factor in you'd lose one turn of research and production (essentially an anarchy turn), I don't think it's worth it.

I would have liked to see what's north of the settler, but the scout's already moved. No biggie. Still, knowing that the map and starting position is likely to have made our starting location good, I'd settle in place. Don't undervalue those two floodplains. Put a cottage on it (or a farm if you're whip-happy) and watch your city (and unhealthy) explode.

Either way, this food and production heavy start screams whip-rushed Immortals. Get a worker out to hook up cows ASAP. Research AH and BW. Find horses and settle ASAP right next to them. Hook the horses up to the capital. Then whip like there's no tomorrow.

This early, population are cheap. Crush everything you can find with Immortals. They chew through archers like butter. Take a few axes as support in case the bastard AI makes a few spears.

Expand as rapidly as you can in the early era. Even if your science rate drops to 10%, it'll pop back up soon enough and you'll be better for it.

My $0.02

 

[azaris]

Turn 0: Decided to settle in place to get all three cows plus flood plains for maximum hammer and food production from the start. The river runs to the west so there's bound to be a decent second city site near the gems. Started researching Animal Husbandry, due in 10. Find more cows surrounding Persepolis. Start a worker in Persepolis, due in 15.

Turn 1: The scout discovers stone! Pyramids, anyone? It's outside the fat cross so need to build a city if we want to go for some wonders. We also pop a hut for 41 gold.

Turn 2: A meeting of scouts takes place. Khaaaan (of the Mongols)! His scout is to our south. We're very closeby, but at least we now have a prime candidate for an early rush.

Turn 3: zzz...

Turn 4: A hut pops for 73 gold, we find more cows.

Turn 5: Borders of Persepolis pop.

Turn 6: zzz...

Turn 7: zzz...

Turn 8: zzz...

Turn 9: The scout is mapping around Persepolis, but hasn't discovered much.

Turn 10: The scout pops Mining from a hut. A bit of luck there.

Turn 11: Hinduism FIADL. Animal Husbandry completes, start Bronze Working, ready in 15. Bad news: no horses to be found, anywhere.

This is not good for our plan of rushing Khan with Immortals. Let's hope we can find copper instead. I continue scouting in the hopes that horsies will be found somewhere.

Turn 12: Scout gets XP from a hut. There appears to be a largish mountain range to the west. This is probably a good thing, since we have one less front to defend.

Turn 13: We now have a Medic I scout called Albert Schweitzer. Try and keep him alive until our first rush, he will come in handy. We meet Brennus in the north. The Celts have founded Hinduism. If Brennus thinks he can counter our Immortals with Gallic warriors the joke's on him - we won't have any Immortals.

Turn 14: zzz...

Turn 15: Buddhism FIADL.

Turn 16: Persepolis completes worker, starts a warrior, due in 8. The worker starts building a pasture.

Turn 17: Moved the scout to take a peek at Genghis' territory.

Turn 18: Meet more neighbours, this time it's Frederick of the Germans.

Turn 19: zzz...

Turn 20: Albert Schweitzer meets bears near the Mongolian territories and runs away. He also pops another hut for more XP. Bronze Working is due in 5, the workers are building a second pasture for Persepolis.

These are the north territories:

And the middle territories:

And the southern territories:

Still no horses to be found. I'll stop here and let the next player continue with our early expansion. I guess we proceed with a heavy duty whipping strategy, hoping to find copper somewhere.

Since Orion071 is going to be away for a while, he could take the next turn. Let us know if you don't have time to play and post in time for tomorrow:

THE ROSTER:

azaris (just played)
Orion071 (UP for 20 turns)
dawn
Sealot
eznihm
Aoxomoxoa
Codeman

 

[Sealot]

Arrrrrrrgh.. Let's hope we have atleast copper or we are pretty much doomed, or atleast our warhungering dreams are! I'm not fan of pyramids and haven't used it much, but would it really be worth in this game? We would have to get a second city to stone, connect it and then spent hundreds of hammers for building it. We aren't even industrial. While we could have rushed many axes (if we do get copper) and maybe even took out a civilization, took their capital and maybe even got horses there if lucky enough. I'm not experienced enough to say so more opinions

Other bad thing, Karakorum is on hill too.

 

[Orion071]

I'll take it now. Pyramids are a waste of time for this game, but Stonehenge may be useful to pop new city's borders. It's not worth settling a city by the Stone is there's nothing else useful around it. I'll keep searching for those elusive Horses, since we'll obviously need them.

 

[Orion071]

OK, goals for the turnset:

FIND HORSES!!!

Let's see how it goes...

Turn 1: Warrior done, I start a second Scout to speed up the search. The first Scout circles around the Mongols.

Turn 2: zzzz...

Turn 3: zzzz...

Turn 4: I found some Horses just E outside of Karakorum's borders. Not especially useful for us, but if push comes to shove, we'll take it.

Turn 5: Bronze Working in, I revolt to Slavery. The Scout is done and we're size 2, so I'll start on the Settler when we're out of anarchy. I meet Brennus and find some more Horses east of the 1st set, 7E of Karakorum. Still not that useful. I start on the Wheel.

Turn 6: I meet Hatshepsut. She has Buddhism and Brennus has Hinduism.

Turn 7: zzzz...

Turn 8: Scout #2 meets an unfriendly Lion and dies. I forgot to mention that my Scouts have the worst luck with animals and barbs.

Turn 9: zzzz...

Turn 10: I meet Alex (Phalanx, ouch) and our roster is complete. Alex will definitely need some Axes to take out. Settler is due next turn.

Here's the best place I could find for the second city. It has 2 Cows, Horses and Copper as well as a Floodplains. Unfortunately, it's kind of far away and doesn't have good river access to connect it to the capitol.

The Wheel is in and I start on Mysticism. Our 2nd city will need a border expansion for the 2nd Cows and the Copper.

Turn 11: Settler is in. I finished a pasture on all 4 Cows, so I send the Worker off with the Settler to the second city site. I use the Warrior and our original Scout to fogbust the route. I want our capitol to grow so I wait on another Worker and start a Barracks.

Turn 12: zzzz...

Turn 13: Khan is racing us with 2 Warriors and a Settler to the spot I picked out! Too bad, we get there first and found Pasargadae.

It starts a Barracks, too. Maintanence is bad, but we'll make up for it in pillage. Khan's party turns south along his river.

Turn 14: Mysticism is in and I go to Pottery. The Barracks is complete in Persepolis. Stonehenge will be done in 12 turns and hopefully Horses will be almost hooked up by then.

Turn 15: zzzz...

Turn 16: zzzz...

Turn 17: Pasture is done on the Cows and I start on the Horses.

Turn 18: zzzz...

Turn 19: zzzz...

Turn 20: Pasture on the Horses is done. Need to start a road now. I found Hatshepsut's territory. She's NE of us, about twice as far away as Khan.

Summary of the world:

I didn't explore much more, because I needed Albert to fogbust our Settler's path. Stonehenge will be done in Persepolis in 6 turns, then it needs a Warrior for a garrison and a Worker to cottage those floodplains. Pasargadae needs to finish that Barracks and concentrate on Immortals. The Worker needs to build a road from the Horses through the Cows and straight north to the river. That will hook up the capitol with Horses. Then it's time for war!

With Karakorum on a hill, we'll probably need 2.5 times as many Immortals as he has Archers. So for 3 Archers, I'd say we need 8 Immortals. If Khan even has that much defending.

Pottery is in next turn. I'd recommend Writing so we can Open Borders and really scout the defenses of people before we attack them.

And... the save:

View attachment AZ-01 Donut World BC-2200.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

The Pyramids are certainly a worthy goal. Imagine, in a war-heavy game, how much unhappiness we'll be able to counter simply by switching to hereditary rule (long before anyone else). That's a huge advantage. That said, stealing the Pyramids is often a better use of hammers than building them yourself.

Now, if you do want to build them, you don't have to have stone in any city's big fat cross (BFC), just within your cultural borders. The next cultural pop for Persepolis will take care of that. No need to throw up a crappy city, just to get stone.

Somewhat of a bummer about the horses, but since I actually *looked* and this this is normal speed, so Immortals aren't the overwhelming archer-killers they'd be on epic. Still, we'll have tons of production and lots of food to regrow whipped population. (If you have the pyramids and hereditary rule, a couple of units in the capital will wipe out most of your "cruel oppression" redshirts.)

Whether immortals play a part or not, you'll have lots of good guys to kill lots of bad guys. I promise.

 

[Orion071]

Immortals have plenty of play, even on normal speed. Remember, they crush Axemen as well, so we only have to worry about Spears and Swords. We can easily take out 3 or 4 civs with them.

As for the Pyramids, we don't need them. Happiness won't be that big of a deal, plus we have Gems. With the Gems hooked up, the happiness cap will be 7 IIRC. Plenty for our purposes. There aren't that many good tiles on this map to use anyway. Just whip away the rest.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

The stone is 3 squares SW straight diagonally, that means they won't be in Persepolis's influence for another 2 culture pops, that's a long time away.

While the city location there isn't that great it isn't horrible, but we can get that stone and with the 3rd city up by the 3 cows to the NE, we can easily, easily build Stonehenge, Pyramids and Great Wall.

 

[azaris]

Good turnset by Orion. We are now back on track for kicking ass and taking names after securing both copper and horses with one strike. Settling so close to Genghis also saves the Immortals a bit of travel time.

I don't think the Pyramids match our strategy of early military conquest. To be honest, I never bother with them, but seeing we found stone early I decided to kick the ball around a bit. That's alright, plenty of other useful wonders get the stone bonus. Let's concentrate on military for now.

Any thoughts on where our third city should go, or is it already founded and called Karakorum?

THE ROSTER:

azaris
Orion071 (just played)
dawn (UP for 20 turns)
Sealot
eznihm
Aoxomoxoa
Codeman

 

[Veritass]

Small lurker comment: always move scouting units on the diagonal if possible to see more spaces. For example, in the original move, the scouts moved East-East to check out space. If they had instead moved Southeast-Northeast, they would still get to the same spot, but they would have checked out 3-4 tiles that are one tile south of what they did check out.

 

[Orion071]

Small lurker comment: always move scouting units on the diagonal if possible to see more spaces. For example, in the original move, the scouts moved East-East to check out space. If they had instead moved Southeast-Northeast, they would still get to the same spot, but they would have checked out 3-4 tiles that are one tile south of what they did check out.

Good point. I was going to mention that and forgot.

Stonehenge in almost complete in our capitol because 1) it can't produce Immortals until the road to the Horses is done and 2) Pasargadae needs a border pop to get the Copper and 2nd Cows. That's really the only wonder I'd worry about for now.

I wouldn't worry about a 3rd city until we take Karakorum. Maintanence is high enough as it is. Karakorum can probably be used as a science/money city. I can only see 2 floodplains right now, but if it has more floodplains or grassland along that river, then it should be a pure cottage city. Got to fund the war somehow! The space 5E and 2N of Persepolis would be a huge production city (3 Cows and Copper), but I wouldn't found it until we cottage up the floodplains around Persepolis and Karakorum. Then it's Immortals and the occasional Axe to conquer the world.

 

[dawn]

Okay, here's my "got it".

Goals for this round:
1. Finish Stonehenge in Persepolis
2. Pasar to finish barracks and then mass produce the Immortals
3. Much road work and connecting of resources.
4. Tech path: Pottery --> writing

Comments, suggestions before I continue?

 

[azaris]

Research Pottery first of all. Our economy is poor now and it will tank if we found another distant city/capture Karakorum. Putting up cottages on those three flood plains south of Persepolis should be priority for the worker. But that interferes with the task of connecting the cities, which makes me think we should have another worker. Then grow pop, whip. repeat, and make a profit while doing it. Should we just beeline for Code of Laws after obtaining the necessary worker techs?

Our medium term goal is khanicide. However, as mentioned before, Karakorum is on a hill, so building the prerequisite army takes time. Genghis is probably pumping out settler parties as we speak and at least one has already landed. Sometimes I like to declare early on AIs to to stop them developing their land and sit in their cities pumping out green archers (aka Immortal Fodder). I realize there is a risk involved in going to war too early, but it's an idea.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

Once horses are hooked up, that workers priority needs to be connecting the two cities. He will do that as soon as he hits the river 3 squares to the north. Immortals are going to be popping every 1-3 turns depending on which city it is so getting the army together won't take a long time by any means. Just let the worker continue on with the road to Persepolis and get cottages going and gems hooked up. I'd only whip if Persepolis gets unhappy. Might want to get a warrior built there too to guard home (and make the people feel a little happier).

We need another worker, however we should get those from the war.

Don't open borders as it will be 10 turns (right?) until we can cancel it. We need to prosecute this war very very fast. 10-15 military units outside the borders are going to kill us in $$$, but it's what will be needed.

 

[Orion071]

Well, Pottery is about 3 beakers away from being complete, so that won't be to hard to do.

After Stonehenge is complete, Persepolis can put out a Worker to cottage those floodplains. It's going to need some sort of garrison for defense. By the time Stonehenge and the Worker are done, it should be ready to start Immortals. Our other Worker can stay and improve the rest of Pasargadae.

If Karakorum wasn't on a hill then I wouldn't care how many Archers he had. But we don't want to give him any warning. Let's get about 8 Immortals and take him down quickly. You can always use the whip if a city runs out of useful tiles to work.

Remember, the Worker only needs to put a road on the Horses, Cows and the 2 tiles north of the Cows to connect to our capitol. Then it's Hammer Time <-- (I love this smiley)

I'm pretty sure you can Open Borders and then still declare war the very next turn. Anyone know differently?

Eventually, we'll get a Great Prophet from Stonehenge. Religions and Shrines aren't too useful for our warmongering ways, but is there any way we can pop CoL with him? We could probably get it with the Oracle, but I don't want to detour from Immortals for that long.

 

[dawn]

Okay, here goes:
1) 2160BC - Pottery --> Writing (as per team discussion).
2) 2120BC - Scouting
3) 2080BC - Whip Persepolis to complete Stonehenge and prevent unhealthy status. Set warrior to build.
4) 2040BC - Pasar: Barracks --> Immortal
- Barb warrior spotted to the north
5) 2000GB - Persepolis: warrior --> warrior (Barb moving down toward the city)
6) 1960BC - Some dude named Livy says we're not too advance tech wise. Actually called us "puny". We send him packing.
- Persopolis: warrior --> worker (need to get some roads and cottages going around the capital)
7) 1920BC - Scouting around. Find Brennus Land.
8) 1880BC - Pasar: Immortal --> Immortal
- Cities connected via road/river combo.
9) 1840BC - Start roading towards the copper to time with the borader pop.
10) 1800BC - Persepolis: worker --> Settler
11) 1760BC - Pasar: Immortal --> Immortal
12) 1720BC - Brennus switches to OR
13) 1680BC - Writing --> Archery (barbs are starting to wander the land)
- Freddie comes asking for OB.
- Border pop at Pasar times with the start of the mine on the copper.
- Persopolis: whip the settler and start Immortal
14) 1640BC - Pasar: Immortal --> Immortal
15) 1600BC - Persopolis: Immortal --> Immortal
16) 1560BC - Alex wants OB. Don't see why not.
- Settler founds Susa, one pop from the stone on the same river.
17) 1520BC - Hatty wants OB. I'm a sucker for a pretty face so
- Pasar: Immortal --> Immortal
- Copper is hooked up.
- Immortal defeats barb and between turns defeats a second one.
18) 1480BC - Persepolis: Immortal --> Immortal
- Brennus wants OB, so I agree.
- Pasar: Whip the Immortal to prevent unhealthy. Start an Axe.
19) 1440BC - Hannibal joins the fun and gets OB.

- Barb fight above
20) 1400BC - Archery --> Masonry (Great Wall )
- Pasar: Axe --> Immortal
- Persepolis: MM city to work the new cottage giving +1 at 30% research.

 

[dawn]

Some closing notes.
5 Immortals and 1 axe are sitting on the hit West of Pasar. Another Immortal will be done in 2 turns.
The worker on the same hill is building a road to the cows.
Worker near Persepolis is building a cottage.
Immortal north of Susa is fog busting and left unpromoted.

 

[Orion071]

We didn't really need to found Susa. All it gets us is Stone, and we want Immortals, not more wonders. Our economy is going to be very important and we can't afford to have too many cities. Capture Karakorum and keep it because we can cottage it up. Raze the rest of Khan's cities. If we go to war with anyone else, raze everything. We can't afford the upkeep.

The only other city we'll need is maybe that production one 5E, 2N of Persepolis. After that, we'll raze everything else until we get Code of Laws and Courthouses. Then we can afford to keep something. That should be the tech priority.

I'll be out until Thursday. Happy hunting!

 

[azaris]

I would've put Susa 1S of the current location. Now it's founded on a grassland and has a desert in the fat cross. Otherwise it wasn't a bad move since the city pays for itself once we cottage those flood plains. After we cottage Persepolis we will break even at 40% science. That's good enough for now, but we need to concentrate on our primary objective: taking out Khan. We can't keep up with tech like this, so we need to act fast before we fall too far behind.

That means not getting sidetracked from building a strong Immortal-axeman army. The Great Wall is nice, but right now we can do without I think. We already have Stonehenge producing twice as many GPs anyway, so we aren't even guaranteed of getting GEs from Persepolis more than every third time (or 50-50 if we build a forge later on).

EDIT: Forgot the mention this little factoid:

This is definitely the direction we want to be heading.

THE ROSTER:

azaris
Orion071
dawn (just played)
Sealot (UP for 15 turns)
eznihm
Aoxomoxoa
Codeman

 

[Sealot]

Got it, will play later today once we get some comments in.
So.. Kill Khan, start to build up economy.. Great wall? Well it won't be completed this round anyway, just the Masonry. I'd say we might as well get it. With stone it would take around 10 turns to complete and once we get it we don't have to worry about barbs and we get engineer points too. Or do I change tech to meditation -> priesthood and then pop code of laws with prophet (can we?). It takes 27 turns to complete both reqs for col and 33 turns for prophet to born. I just need to know will our prophet really pop col or some other tech. Col takes over 70 turns to research atm by ourselves.

Crossposted ^