[NFP] Babylon Pack (November 2020) - Patch Notes Discussion

[Equilin]

Just finished my first Babylon game. I found myself building many, many IZs than usual (terrain is bad with few chops available, and production costs is obnoxious), which results in many wonders as well. Hercules helped with the production a lot (i literally recall him every era possible). I was struggling to win as WCs take too long to convene, space race is slow, and Spain was running away from my tourism (until i get my Rock Bands to him), and I played on a huge map so DomV/RV is exhausting.

Also, has anyone tried sacrificing a hero unit into the volcanoes? I haven't tried, but the option is there when i move Hercules next to the volcano with soothsayer.

 

[kaspergm]

Speaking of Hercules, I'm not sure if this was a reported feature, but it was something I at least was not aware of:

Spoiler :

So when a hero dies, it creates a special archeological site which gives you a heroic artifact rather than a normal artifact when you dig it out. Very cool

 

[nauberry]

I was finally able to take a screenshot of the unthinkable: The AI using anti air guns against my fighters. Seems that it is fixed now!

Spoiler :

 

[Disgustipated]

Not sure if this was in October patch or this patch, but did they change AI behavior with regards to conquering city-states if said AI is your ally?

I'm allied with France (Catherine) and she conquered Bologna, but instead of keeping it, she razed it. She may have been at war with Bologna since before we were allies, but I don't think so. P'd me off since Bologna was my ally since the beginning of the game, and have a useful bonus. I'm thinking maybe she razed it because she wasn't allowed to keep it?

On a similar note, a free city that flipped to me that I wanted to raze I wasn't allowed to since France was my ally. I only had the option of returning it or keeping it. So now I'm stuck with a crappy city. I suppose I could have returned it, but I'm not in the habit of helping the AI. I'll build an aqueduct so it may be marginally useful. AI still not building cities with fresh water.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Speaking of Hercules, I'm not sure if this was a reported feature, but it was something I at least was not aware of:

It's in the patch notes which are repeated in the very first post of this thread ....

The first time a Hero dies or expires, they leave behind two Heroic Relic Great Works: an Epic and a symbolic object. These relics can aid their civilization throughout the rest of the game. Monuments can display these items in two new Heroic Relic slots.

 

[Kotofei]

Vampire Babylon is...interesting. Niter allowing, you can rush field cannons and bombards through eurekas. Vampire castles give you capital the production you need to build them, and the vampires are the only melee units you need.

 

[slavaskii]

A few observations as I approach the end of my Babylon game:

1. This is absolutely a domination civ and not a scientific one. I initially started getting worried about tech progression after approaching radio super early and realizing I was absolutely going to need this tech for both aluminum and the eureka. Though I got my spaceport up early with the help of Renya (and spies), it was pretty underwhelming because I didn’t have the Mars mission unlocked for another 20-30 turns. Try as I might, I just couldn’t steal it nor boost it with a Great Scientist. I’m at turn 250 and convinced that I could’ve won with any other civ by now.

2. Babylon works well for people stuck on the tall-focused Civ V mentality. For fun, I only settled 8 cities including the capital - it was super easy to get the settlers out, too, as you’re essentially guaranteed a golden age in the Classical Era and your faith generation should be decent. The Palgum is an incredible UB that makes your cities grow amazingly fast. Despite not settling nearly as much as I usually, not having to focus on campuses really helped get my other yields going faster than normal.

3. In your capital, you’re going to want to go Holy Site first (guaranteeing you a religion), but in your secondary cities, you should start with a Commercial Hub. My thought was this: if you’re going to potentially arrive at spaceports quickly, you’re going to want to ensure you can get them out immediately, and that means just buying them outright. I was shocked at my gold production and nearly bought two spaceports. Trade routes caused my production to be satisfactory, as well.

4. Speaking of production, I found only two wonders necessary - Ruhr and Petra. What’s great about these two is that they’re both somewhat ignored by the AI and they both trigger eurekas. Ruhr completely destroyed any questions I could’ve had about production in Babylon - my capital can produce nearly anything in 1-2 turns.

5. At the end of the game, Babylon is far too dependent on spies. I started transitioning to mass building campuses around the time of spaceports (actually worked well, I wouldn’t have needed them before), and my spies were still milking Korea for tech. However, they all suddenly started dying or being captured, and try as I might to promote them or assign them elsewhere, I just can’t get the tech boosts. It made me cry when one was escaping Korea with Satellites and then was killed when trying to escape on foot.

All in all - super fun civ, but I would love to see someone be able to perfect their late game for science victories. I definitely understood this isn’t what they’re meant for, but Babylon gave me such happy and nostalgic Civ V vibes that I wanted to build more than conquer. Interested to see how other people use them...

 

[Equilin]

It's in the patch notes which are repeated in the very first post of this thread ....

I was never told the second one would come in the form of antiquity sites however. Until I found out myself that I didn't dig archaeological artifact but Heroic Relic.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

I was never told the second one would come in the form of antiquity sites however. Until I found out myself that I didn't dig archaeological artifact but Heroic Relic.

It was specifically mentioned in the livestream fwiw.

It's also in the pedia in two places (emphasis mine).

This mode includes a new type of Great Work: the Heroic Relic. When a Monument is devoted to a Hero, it gains two Heroic Relic Great Work slots. After a Hero’s first appearance in the game is over (whether because they were killed or their Lifespan expired), they leave behind two unique Heroic Relics: a Heroic Epic and a Heroic Symbol. Heroic Epics are automatically placed in the Monument in the Hero's origin city. Heroic Symbols are hidden as Antiquity sites and can be excavated by Archaeologists once you have unlocked that capability.

The Heroic Symbol is a famous object associated with the Hero. It is placed as an Antiquity Site on a plot close to where the Hero was located when they left the game. When you unlock Archaeologists and can excavate the site, the Heroic Symbol can be recovered and placed in the Hero’s Monument building.

 

[Buktu]

You have to pay attention to your heroes a little bit before they doe in order to get the antiquary sites from them though. I think I lost 2 of them since my heros stood in cities when they vanished for the first time. There were no relics near any of these cities later on though.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I did my first babylon game without any game modes on, so I could get a feel for them. Now I'm doing my first heroes game (as GIlgamesh, who's just up the river from Hammurabi anyway!). My first hero is Maui. I think you can use him to scout for resources... I put him on an empty unowned tile, but he couldn't make anything there. I suspect there is invisible aluminum or uranium or something there...

Edit: Also, I think Maui + Anasazi is a real good combo. Maui creates, Anasazi chops. I'm sure somebody has mentioned this before!

 

[Palo]

Not sure if this was in October patch or this patch, but did they change AI behavior with regards to conquering city-states if said AI is your ally?

I'm allied with France (Catherine) and she conquered Bologna, but instead of keeping it, she razed it.

I saw Bolivar attack and raze a city-state so something has changed.

 

[Brutus2]

1. This is absolutely a domination civ and not a scientific one. I initially started getting worried about tech progression after approaching radio super early and realizing I was absolutely going to need this tech for both aluminum and the eureka. Though I got my spaceport up early with the help of Renya (and spies), it was pretty underwhelming because I didn’t have the Mars mission unlocked for another 20-30 turns. Try as I might, I just couldn’t steal it nor boost it with a Great Scientist. I’m at turn 250 and convinced that I could’ve won with any other civ by now.

I have to agree. My first Babylon game was a Science win and I had the same thought that even though I was way ahead of AI in tech eras, I didn't win any faster with Babylon than any other "science" civ by the time I launched mars mission and started boosting the ship speed. However, I absolutely could have rolled over civs with my more advanced units especially with Sinbad to bring in tons of gold to upgrade or buy units.

You have to pay attention to your heroes a little bit before they doe in order to get the antiquary sites from them though. I think I lost 2 of them since my heros stood in cities when they vanished for the first time. There were no relics near any of these cities later on though.

The relic drops near the spot where the hero died not on that exact spot so hopefully ending in a city shouldn't be a problem. I had a couple heroes end their lifespan in the ocean. I was waiting to see if a "shipwreck" would appear in that spot but I don't think it ever did. It's possible I may have missed it though.

 

[Buktu]

The relic drops near the spot where the hero died not on that exact spot so hopefully ending in a city shouldn't be a problem. I had a couple heroes end their lifespan in the ocean. I was waiting to see if a "shipwreck" would appear in that spot but I don't think it ever did. It's possible I may have missed it though.

As I said there where no antiquary sites near the cities where my heroes died. I will keep an eye out for it next time though.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I was never told the second one would come in the form of antiquity sites however. Until I found out myself that I didn't dig archaeological artifact but Heroic Relic.

Fair enough - think it was covered in the Livestream but not explicit in the patch notes.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

This is absolutely a domination civ and not a scientific one.

I'm not sure why people thought a Civ with a 50% Science penalty would be a science civ!

They're set up for a fast start but I can definitely see the struggle in the late game.

 

[CoconutTank]

I'm not sure why people thought a Civ with a 50% Science penalty would be a science civ!

They're set up for a fast start but I can definitely see the struggle in the late game.

Yup yup. Some of the science victory techs like Rocketry, Satellites and Exoplanet Expedition have no particularly easy eureka, so Babylon will likely be stuck doing hard research for those.

 

[slavaskii]

I'm not sure why people thought a Civ with a 50% Science penalty would be a science civ!

They're set up for a fast start but I can definitely see the struggle in the late game.

Lol, indeed you have a point! I think people were hoping there'd be some cheese strategy, I mean, you can sail through to rocketry fairly easily and there was an assumption that would just continue onwards. If spying was more effective and there were better great scientists, I'd reckon they'd be a good quick SV candidate. I just don't see any way to improve that late game, even if they had half the cities on the planet.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Not sure if this was in October patch or this patch, but did they change AI behavior with regards to conquering city-states if said AI is your ally? I'm allied with France (Catherine) and she conquered Bologna, but instead of keeping it, she razed it

I saw Bolivar attack and raze a city-state so something has changed.

I think that is because the capital-razing bug is still out there - for City States their only city is their captial.

Should be reported as a bug.

 

[UWHabs]

Vampire Babylon is...interesting. Niter allowing, you can rush field cannons and bombards through eurekas. Vampire castles give you capital the production you need to build them, and the vampires are the only melee units you need.

I mis-played a lot, but it's still cruising to a victory. I was unlucky to have no iron nearby, so that prevented a few potential rushes, and a couple times my eureka jumping got ahead of me. Like, for example, I teched to Cuirassiers before I secured any iron, so by the time I was ready to build a knight, I couldn't anymore.

But man, my capital is a beast. I'm into the industrial period (for me, game era is still like 20 turns away) and my cap is getting 150+ production a turn. It helps that I have a few spots nearby which have a good mix of rivers, so I think I have at least 3-4 +14 or so industrial zones, and a bunch of river tiles that are like 9 food due to farming regions and flooding. I've only built like 3 districts in my capital actually just because I have a bunch of wonders and the like around.

I did discover an interesting option for Babylon is grabbing the Statue of Zeus. It gives you your machinery eureka, and then once you get a couple crossbows, you also get +50% production on pike and shots. So that's a good way to rush out to those advanced units, especially with vampires to go along them.