Babylon vs korea

Doctor Doom

Warlord
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
187
sorry to bring up an age old topic without putting any input of my own into the debate.

Who's the better science civ? For the longest time I always thought Babylon was better but I've several people say Korea is on par if not better with several specialists. One more question about korea's UA does the science bonus you get from building wonders and science buildings in the capital add beakers per turn or is it like a GS bulb?
 
Under control of the AI: It's always Korea; Babylon AI's science flavor is too low and it immediately bulbs its free GS instead of making an academy. :dubious:

Under control of the Human; if the difficulty level is Immortal+ where world wonders with science flavors are unreliable: Babylon for both the ultra early academy & much faster academies in general. (Normal Education beeline)

Science is now very important for all peaceful conditions, so I've not broken it down by type unlike G&K. (UN requires a civ reaching the Information era [or half of all civs reaching Atomic and in addition after the patch are uncommon before Globalism at the end of the tech tree]; Cultural victories are rarely won before the Internet which is at the end of the tech tree)
 
so does korea compare to Babylon or does Babylon completely pass them? Korea's UU seems a bit better than the bowman.
 
Both of Korea's UUs are great, especially hwacha which keeps invaders nicely off.

Turtle ship sacrifices caravel though so you won't explore world that early, but it's another solid defender.

Bowman is actually pretty flexible, the wall isn't that special in my opinion.
 
so does korea compare to Babylon or does Babylon completely pass them? Korea's UU seems a bit better than the bowman.

Korea compares on lower difficulties, where wonders for science are quite easily taken. When you get to Emperor it's about equal, and at Immortal Babylon is quite clearly ahead.
 
There are only a few world wonders that give the mini-bulb effect. It isn't just these world wonders that do this, it's all science buildings built/bought in the capital that do it as well. Even this isn't the strong point with Korea. It's the extra 2 beakers from all specialists and great person tile improvements that makes Korea's science strong.

With the 3 guilds and a university in the capital and all 8 of those specialist slots filled you have the equivalent of 2 academies worth of beakers. Two Korean academies is as much science output at 3 academies for everyone else until you start unlocking the techs that add beakers to the academies. Likewise, every 2 cities after that capital that are just running specialists in the university is another academy's worth of beakers. These are all base beakers, so they all get multiplied by every multiplier in the city.

With internal trade route feeding your cities, you can quickly fill all the specialist slots available. With a little bit of micro-managing you can ensure you don't generate any Merchants or Engineers.
 
Korea by FAR. (at least for me who plays for CV)
The UA is pretty much as good as getting a free GS bulb for library, NC, (observatory if terrain allows), university, public school, research lab in the capitol... 5-6 bulbs, and I won't mention getting pretty much the secularism effect for "free"!
I struggle to see how +50% to GS generation can match that (+50% sounds big but when you throw in national epic + garden + WC proposal if you don't mind the AI hate, +25% from rationalism and +25% from avant-garde or hero of the people, it's not that much... (+25 +25 +33 +25 +25 = +133%) so it's like a 50/233 ~20-25% overall boost for your capitol, which is pretty much 2-3 extra GS per game at the end of the game... not that much.

Of course there's the snowballing effect of reaching crucial techs faster with that extra academy Babylon has after writing is researched, but that GS has to be planted, so it might come at the cost, of, say, 2 food or hammers early game. As far as finish time goes, I think that will vary from map to map, and from the number of friends and RAs; one civ maybe better than the other under specific conditions)
 
You can take any UU out of the equation for any science based leader, you should get into a tech advantage if the science bonus is any good. As a result the science based civ's standard units will be better than a lower tech UU.

The easiest way is to play a series of maps with each civ in turn and compare results.
Is there still an option to save a map from a game? I thought this was possible previously. Alternatively maybe you can make a map using SDK.
 
Korea by FAR. (at least for me who plays for CV)
The UA is pretty much as good as getting a free GS bulb for library, NC, (observatory if terrain allows), university, public school, research lab in the capitol... 5-6 bulbs, and I won't mention getting pretty much the secularism effect for "free"!
I struggle to see how +50% to GS generation can match that (+50% sounds big but when you throw in national epic + garden + WC proposal if you don't mind the AI hate, +25% from rationalism and +25% from avant-garde or hero of the people, it's not that much... (+25 +25 +33 +25 +25 = +133%) so it's like a 50/233 ~20-25% overall boost for your capitol, which is pretty much 2-3 extra GS per game at the end of the game... not that much.

Of course there's the snowballing effect of reaching crucial techs faster with that extra academy Babylon has after writing is researched, but that GS has to be planted, so it might come at the cost, of, say, 2 food or hammers early game. As far as finish time goes, I think that will vary from map to map, and from the number of friends and RAs; one civ maybe better than the other under specific conditions)

The run away is the main bonus of Babylon; you can get library, NC, uni, public school and research lab in most games. That's effectively 5 bulbs, but the library and NC come at a time when the bulbing is not very effective; bulbing the two early techs is comparable to 10 turns for Babylon; if you time it right (or delay NC, which sucks) then you might be able to get Theology/Civil Service, so that's maybe 15 turns. The early +8 science will normally put your science from 8-10 to 16-18, a massive bonus. This is compounded with the very quick +50% from the NC, meaning you get an early +12 bpt from the academy; massive compared to the bulbing from NC and library, and over time that original academy will probably generate science for at least 200 turns, or 2400 beakers. The beakers come at the most important part of the game though, they allow you to rush Education very quickly and get a great scientist generator going; the main advantage being you can get to the science generating techs much quicker than Korea could, so you constantly have a tech lead. As the game progresses on Korea will catch up; the research lab and public school bonus from Korea is larger, and the specialist means late game Korea catches up. A good Babylon player will already by too close to winning by the time Korea is catching up.

This is reflected in the way I play as well; I've played both a lot, and always go better in science with Babylon. Korea's unique units are so much better though, and the Turtle Ship means I can often survive attacks as Korea I wouldn't as Babylon.
 
Personally, I'd say Babylon is better.

Babylon gives you such a head start with Science. Think about it, if you can get to Writing by turn 25 - 30, you'll be making twice as many beakers as everyone else at that point in the game. Throughout the whole game, I can get about 17 GS's as Babylon, which equates to something ridiculous like 500 beakers per turn if they were all placed as Academies (They wouldn't be, but we'll say they are just for this argument). By the late game, you can get 16 beakers per Academy, which is essentially 8 specialists with Korea. With Korea, I'd normally maybe get like 8 or 9 GS's, so we'll say I get 8 extra as Babylon, which is the equivalent of 64 specialists.

You also get the tech boost from Korea, but when I played them, I found it quite hit and miss what actually gave me a tech boost (Porcelain Tower didn't actually give me a tech boost which confused the hell out of me). If you want to actually play the game, however, I find Korea a much more interesting Civ, and it has the capabilities to hold it's own in battle, something that Babylon would struggle to do unless you've spammed non-unique units.
 
A good Korean player will catch up a lot faster than you're assuming here. Without the GL and Oracle, or completing Liberty, Babylon won't be getting a 2nd academy until some time after universities are built/bought, because +50% of 0 is still 0. However, Korea can be working the Writer's Guild slots and market slots (since markets are on the way to universities) to make gain the same extra beakers as Babylon's academy.

Capital with writer guild and market = 3 specialist slots all generating 2 beakers each or 6 beakers total. So with NC that is 9 beakers from just the capital or only 3 beakers less than Babylon's academy. Now add the other 3 cities in the typical 4 city tradition start each working their market's merchant slot and that's another 6 beakers for a total of 15 beakers, which is 3 more than Babylon's academy.

So as Korea if you went to writing then beelines for markets while getting your 3 settler's out and those other 3 cities built/bought their libraries before you build/buy one in the capital you can get a nice boost towards philosophy when the capital finishes its library. If you also manage to get the markets built and manned before finishing NC you can get a nice boost from it as well.

Now, when you unlock universities, you make sure the other cities have theirs built/bought and manned before the capital builds its university for another good boost. If you've timed everything well enough you should at least be caught up with Babylon by the Renaissance. From there if you work all your specialist slots for as long as possible (removing the merchants as necessary to ensure a GS pops instead of a merchant) you should start accelerating past Babylon fairly quickly.
 
A good Korean player will catch up a lot faster than you're assuming here. Without the GL and Oracle, or completing Liberty, Babylon won't be getting a 2nd academy until some time after universities are built/bought, because +50% of 0 is still 0. However, Korea can be working the Writer's Guild slots and market slots (since markets are on the way to universities) to make gain the same extra beakers as Babylon's academy.

Capital with writer guild and market = 3 specialist slots all generating 2 beakers each or 6 beakers total. So with NC that is 9 beakers from just the capital or only 3 beakers less than Babylon's academy. Now add the other 3 cities in the typical 4 city tradition start each working their market's merchant slot and that's another 6 beakers for a total of 15 beakers, which is 3 more than Babylon's academy.

So as Korea if you went to writing then beelines for markets while getting your 3 settler's out and those other 3 cities built/bought their libraries before you build/buy one in the capital you can get a nice boost towards philosophy when the capital finishes its library. If you also manage to get the markets built and manned before finishing NC you can get a nice boost from it as well.

Now, when you unlock universities, you make sure the other cities have theirs built/bought and manned before the capital builds its university for another good boost. If you've timed everything well enough you should at least be caught up with Babylon by the Renaissance. From there if you work all your specialist slots for as long as possible (removing the merchants as necessary to ensure a GS pops instead of a merchant) you should start accelerating past Babylon fairly quickly.

But if you're beelining markets and guilds over education, you'll be getting those universities a lot later than Babylon. That's for two reasons; you're either only working writer's guild + market, which is 3 specialists and so +6 bpt (it's not raw science from the UA is it, as in it's not modified by the NC in which the cities built? Never checked it) or you're working Artists' guild as well (6 specialists, +12bpt, more than Babylon's much earlier academy) and then had to go off track. If I'm wrong about the raw science, ignore this point :p

The second thing is that requires 4 citizens. If you're going for science, you should be able to get education pretty early, and 4 citizens is a significant amount of your workforce. They're not making any food or production, and that's gonna cut back on your growth a lot. If you keep your growth constant, you'll have no production, it's a pretty massive problem. The academy doesn't suffer from this because it's only one citizen, and if you place it on plain + river/grassland it's 2 food will allow it to 'feed itself'. And by the time you've got currency + writer's you're much further into the game then at writing - often it'll be about turn 15 for writing (I often play MP, so quick speed, you might play slow) compared to turn 35+ for writer's and currency. You'll get significant more use out of the same amount of beakers at turn 15 than at turn 35.

As to the multiple cities, I see no way you can be working 4 specialist slots that early in the game, and still have the gpt and hammers to make 3 settlers, and get those cities to have both a library and a market AND the spare citizens to work that specialist slot. I may be playing Korea wrong, but if I tried to do that the cities would either have to wait a long time to work that specialist slot (minimum 4 citizens, so that's at least 20-25 turns for the cities unless you steal a lot of workers or somehow find the production to get food caravans going there) and so you'd only be getting the total +12 at turn 100 or so. This may just be me being bad, but I play Immortal/Emperor, so I don't think it's a skill problem.


I completely agree that by the Renaissance, Korea will be getting to a higher bpt. But the thing is, Babylon is gonna get to the Renaissance a lot quicker than them. As I was saying here, if you're going to try to work 4 specialist slots, build/buy 3 settlers, grow your city (as food is what you need for the SV) and build library + market in the new cities, AND then build the NC you're gonna take a LOT of time. Babylon gets their +8 BPT on turn 15, NC by turn 40 so it'll be +12 by then. They'll soon rush ahead, whereas Korea is stuck trying to grow and make use of it's UA early game.
 
Markets and the Writer's guild are both on the path to education. Yes, the science from the specialists is raw science and is boosted by NC, universities, etc. Since the quickest way to the Renaissance is Acoustics, which has the Musician's guild, the only guild that's not on the fastest path is the Artist guild. However, the Artist guild (Guilds tech), workshop, bank and windmill are all on the fastest path to Scientific Theory, which is another 2-3 specialist slots on every city and all 6 of the guild slots in the capital.

As for food, that's what the internal trade routes are for. You grow the cities as much as possible while getting the markets and guild up. That's all part of the normal micro managing. You don't have to run all the specialists slots all the time. You do need all the scientist slots filled all the time to get as many GS's as possible. Run the other types of specialist as much as possible for the bpt boost and definitely run as many specialists as possible for the 8 turns before you finishing a science building/wonder in the capital to maximize the bulb effect. You do the same thing in the end game when you're getting ready to bulb with your saved GSs.

With Korea, I'd normally maybe get like 8 or 9 GS's, so we'll say I get 8 extra as Babylon, which is the equivalent of 64 specialists.

As for this. Don't forget that if Korea had built academies with all 8 or 9 GS's that's an extra 16-18 beakers or 8-9 less specialists and it gets those extra beakers per academy from the first one planted.

Are you certain about the difference in the number of GS's generated or were you just counting all the GS's and academies you had as Babylon? After all, not counting the 1 free one at writing, some of them probably came from either liberty finisher, leaning tower of pisa, porcelain tower, hubble or were faith bought. Those shouldn't be counted in the difference since both Korea and Babylon can get all of those. At most, with all things being equal, if Korea generated 8-9 then Babylon would have only generated 12-13 or a difference of only 4-4.5. As academies that's a max of 48 beakers or only 12 specialists. Since Korea's academies also give the 2 extra beakers that specialists do, that's only a difference of 30-32 beakers from academies or only 15-16 specialists. Since both civs will be running 4 scientists per city that's only 4 cities with all science buildings to make up that difference.

But wait, there's more. Every time Korea finished a science building in the capital it got the equivalent of bulbing with a GS. Even in the early game where you likely only have 10 bpt, that's 80 beakers or 10 turns worth of Babylon's early academy. This is exactly why you get the libraries and hopefully markets built in your other cities before building/buying the library in the capital. In fact, the capital doesn't even need its library done until you're close to being able to start the NC anyway.

To put it simply. Korea needs a lot more micromanaging between growth and specialist use than Babylon does. However, that micromanaging gets you a lot more science a lot faster once you start having the specialist slots available.

Korea is guaranteed to have 6 bulbs from the UA, library, NC, university, public school, research lab and Oxford. If the capital can build the observatory it gets a 7th. If you're using Oxford to unlock building Hubble, like most folks do, the bulb effect from finishing it will likely be enough to finish at least 1 other late game tech, so you essentially get 2 late game techs with Oxford.
 
Yeah, Korea is all shiny as well. Nothing stands in the way of Babylon though. Education unlocked on turn 90, 2-3 universities rush bought and here you go: double bpt than that of Korea. And it only gets better once you get to the next science tech 20 turns faster than Korea and here you go again: 3 public schools rush bought, and so on. If the word "snowballing" means anything to you then Babylon is the king. :)
 
While they are both awesome at science, they don't play the same way at all. Korea is super fast in the last half while Babylon is superfast at first.
 
Korea is insanely powerful mid-late game. I have some of my best OCC games with Korea, better even than with Babylon. Hwatchas (sp?) are better than cannon for defense, and turtle ships are almost impossible to sink. Once you cross ~18pop he just starts to pull ahead - he is the only civ I build the musicians guild with. The trick with Korea is to get the cap over 40 pop as early as possible, so you have to just not work hammers for a very long time. Korea also makes Freedom much more attractive if you only have 3 cities - which seems to be the ideal size for them.

Following a BO of scout, scout, granary, library, and a tech order of Pottery, writing, calendar, phylo: with Babylon you finish phylo ~T40, and with Korea ~T50. Babylon will then rocket through the early tech tree to CS and education by ~T90, and Korea hits it about T105, after this Korea just starts to catch up and then pull ahead. Korea will actually benefit from a late NC if you crank out two early settlers and build libraries in the expos before the cap. It seems counter-intuitive, but you will get a much larger boost from the library and NC if the empire has had a chance to grow a bit more. You just sort of pound right into renaissance and can grab secularism with out wasting any policies
 
While they are both awesome at science, they don't play the same way at all. Korea is super fast in the last half while Babylon is superfast at first.

It's the key for me. I'm beginner.
In Immortal, due to my play style I prefer Babylon : fast academie, bowman and wall help a lot in early game.
With Korea, I struggle to science + developp 3 to 4 tall cities. I'm often overrun by AI between T100 and T 150. I use to have jungle start and he doesn't help, specially few hammers. I don't know how to have a decent army and settle cities.

With Babylon, I'm playing OCC style with domination to enlarge my empire. It's easier. Base start are more flexible than Korea's base start.

On lower difficult level, I prefer Korea.
 
I rolled this Korea map up quickly on King so TR's would not be a factor in the game. It was a pretty food starved start until I started to get some border expansion, a map with a second (or even third) 2f tile would have made things go even faster, not to mention having to get early trapping, masonry, and bronze working.
Spoiler :


This is why Korea is just so powerful. BO was scout, scout, granary, 2x settlers, worker/archers/etc - anything but the library. Tech order was basically all the ancient era techs, early trapping, early writing, early masonry, then started phylo ~10 before I started the library in the cap. I missed the timing to go right from library to NC by a few turns (slow early growth).
expo 1 was granary, library, watermill, etc
expo 2 was granary, (rushed library), watermill, etc
NC went up ~T95
education finished ~110, I rushed universities in both expos and hard built in the cap.

SS shows the turn the university finished which completed acoustics and most of Guilds. I have all basic infrastructure up in all cities, a military do deal with Bismarck when he DoW's, both TR's going, an army of workers, will open rationalism with no wasted policies in 11 turns, and 151bpt on T119.

Babylon would only be slightly ahead, would have slightly less infrastructure, and would start to fall steadily behind since I can safely start working merchant slots now, and will have the remaining two guilds up very soon.

Don't get me wrong, Babylon is a top tier civ and extremely powerful for SV's, but Korea will do better in the long run even on starts that are les than ideal.
 
Top Bottom