Babylon

[Stalker0]

I have given Babylon a real look recently and I do like the civ.

The c bow is already a solid unit, so a UU off of it is going to be good. The indirect fire I agree is just alright to start out with, but the real trick is you will have range + indirect fire ranged units in the later game which is awesome.

The 50% GS bonus is nice, but the free scientist at writing is where its at...that is a strong and immediate boost to science that will help you the rest of the game. Ultimately to me the investment bonus is the true gem, that bonus is strong and works all game.

I agree that progress is generally better for Babylon, though I think Tradition is a perfectly reasonable one. Wisdom is certainly a good pantheon for them, I also think protection is a reasonable one for them because of their UB.

 

[Gidoza]

Recent changes to tech tree helped both UB (better position) and UU (comes earlier), and the new wisdom pantheon is a fitting pick as well, the civ looks solid to me now.

The wonder investment issue comes by the wording of the UA. I fully expected a 40% discount in past, but that never was the case: the 15% is actually halved for WWs, same as how the standard 50% for buildings is halved. Hence when you invest into a wonder you save (50+15)/2, or 32.5%, compared to the 65% you save with buildings. The UA text could use some friendly disclaimer though.

The 15% being halved for World Wonders actually makes sense thematically with the other bonuses in the game. I'd agree to a disclaimer. However I suppose we should all ask ourselves whether it *should* be halved, or if 40% is actually the value we want for balance (I'm ok with either one, so long as it's balanced).



Changing topics - I noticed some players have noted aiming for the Industry tree with Babylon. I have to admit that I don't really understand this. With the absolutely insane amount of Academies that Babylon can created with its UA, that means when you start bulbing Scientists later in the game, the bonuses will be obscene. Rationalism just seems to be like a default pick with that kind of bonus on the horizon.

 

[pineappledan]

Changing topics - I noticed some players have noted aiming for the Industry tree with Babylon. I have to admit that I don't really understand this. With the absolutely insane amount of Academies that Babylon can created with its UA, that means when you start bulbing Scientists later in the game, the bonuses will be obscene. Rationalism just seems to be like a default pick with that kind of bonus on the horizon.

The bonuses to GScientists in Rationalism don't stack up to Industry's bonuses to your existing investment power.
Industry gives more gold
Industry gives on completion of buildings
Industry combines with your UA to give 75% completion on invested buildings and -30% investment cost

You hit a point with Industry Babylon where your gold purchases are so efficient, and so effective at pushing buildings to near completion, that gold nearly replaces production outright. The ability to finish any infrastructure in any city almost immediately is more impactful than slightly stronger GScience bulbs.

The extra scientist slot from Observatories and the +25% bulb on scientists is equivalent to 2.5 extra academies. However, the bonuses to GAs and spies are not synergistic with the rest of Babylon's kit. Industries bonuses to production and gold combine very well as force multipliers to Babylon's investment bonuses, Broadway is the wonder is stronger, IMO, and every policy feels like it feeds into Babylon's general strategy of "Build All The Things". Industry's main deficiency is its lack of science, so Babylon's UA helps cover for that.

 

[Stalker0]

Changing topics - I noticed some players have noted aiming for the Industry tree with Babylon. I have to admit that I don't really understand this. With the absolutely insane amount of Academies that Babylon can created with its UA, that means when you start bulbing Scientists later in the game, the bonuses will be obscene. Rationalism just seems to be like a default pick with that kind of bonus on the horizon.

The only reason I could see for this is you are hammer starved in your cities, which with fast teching means you have lots of infrastructure left to build. But its a corner case, I agree with you rationalism is the default pick to me. But also I still have trouble finding reasons to take industry most of the time anyway.

 

[CrazyG]

If you are going for a spaceship victory and you don't take rationalism you're crazy. Of course you don't have to win that way as Babylon, but I suspect most people do.

My experience with Babylon is your UA is already a mini-industry, and industry doesn't stack well with itself. You can run out buildings to invest in, then you sit there converting production into science or culture via process.

 

[Legen]

Playing a Babylon game right now. Suppose I can make some comments to add on to what others are saying.

1. I went Tradition - only room for 4 cities in my little cubicle of the continent so I decided to make the best of it by making my Capital as powerful as possible.

2. Bowmen - they're useful for defence in some manner by being able to shoot where they normally couldn't, but they aren't that special overall. I find they shine if I add +1 Range to them - this means their damage is great, but with a LOT of them I can just mass-target one unit and I can always reach it no matter where it is.

3. A problem with Tradition Babylon is that there seems to be no good 2nd Policy choice: Fealty doesn't benefit anything I'm doing; Statecraft is helpful but doesn't give me what I really need; the irony of Artistry is that while it's true that I'm pumping GP, my focus is scientists, and so I have less GW than I might normally. I took Artistry anyways because of the bonus to GP Creation.

4. Yeah, I'd expecta 40% decrease on Wonders to be the case with the UA, but it doesn't seem so. This has caused me to miss Wonders if have expected to get.

5. Walls - are weak and in the wrong place.



Here's some of my thoughts based on observations from myself and others...


A - Why not move the Walls of Babylon to Writing? Then the UA and UB will come together.

B - I like the idea of changing the Walls effect to +3 GS points and dropping the Scientist. It also needs more HP - OR you could add HP to the city for each Scientist present.

C - Give the Bowman a 90% experience requirement for levelling up, or +1 experience for all combats, and the promotion stays. The weakness of Indirect Fire carrying on will regulate itself by enabling these units to level up higher in time.

I don't think the UB needs to go to Writing, you can just go for an early Construction (especially with Progress's opener) and use the extra science from the UB to quickly get to Writing. Moreover, early scientist allows for synergies with the new Goddess of Wisdom, plus either Creativity or Mastery. And I definitively don't want to have walls delayed when I'm forced to face an early warmonger.

I do think it should have extra HP over the baseline Wall it replaces, since that's what it had before. I don't remember an intentional nerf to the UB, I assume it got streamlined by accident when the Wall HP increased from 50 to 125 and nobody noticed. By the way, the Strategy section on the civilopedia needs an update, it's still listing the old values for defense and hit points.

I agree that the investment part should be easier to visualize somehow, that's would be a much welcomed QoL.

I think the UU is on the weak side, which isn't an issue I see with this civ yet. I mostly wished it had a bonus when fighting in friendly lands, given that the civ already encourages a more defensive mindset with the Walls of Babylon and the preference for a scientific victory.

 

[DeAnno]

The thing I hate most about Babylon is that normally there are helpful spikes on the production meter in the UI to know when you have to Invest. With Babs I need to be whipping out my calculator every other turn to see if I'll miss an investment.

 

[Legen]

What if the global (a.k.a. for all civs) investment threshold were 50% of the building production cost (25% for world wonders) regardless of the actual production discount upon investing? That would solve not only Babylon's UA annoyance, it would also deal with Industry's 10% one.

The investment threshold was added because it allowed human players to bank large amounts of production for a wonder they are about to unlock, which was considered an exploit. That was particularly used to grab early wonders, such as Stonehenge. I think Babylon's 15% is relatively small for that purpose, while Industry's 10% comes really late and is much harder to time for a wonder.

 

[Delvemor]

Babylon is one of my favorite civs and I like picking Industry with them. Rationalism gives more science and growth, but that's pretty much it unless you work A LOT of villages. Industry gives science from economy buildings (markets and such), from buildings completion and from WLTKD, but also boosts your production, gold and culture significantly and helps better with unhappiness, making it the most versatile tiers 3 tree IMO. I believe the last part of Babylon UA is severely overlooked. 15% more production from gold investments is huge. All you have to do is to maintain a good economy to get an immediate return from it, and that's exactly what Industry helps you to do. While the GS at Writing and the faster generation of GS is still the most impactful part of the UA, the last part of the UA allows you to benefit from the new techs faster. For example, rushing all these public schools and research labs to get them working as soon as possible.

You hit a point with Industry Babylon where your gold purchases are so efficient, and so effective at pushing buildings to near completion, that gold nearly replaces production outright. The ability to finish any infrastructure in any city almost immediately is more impactful than slightly stronger GScience bulbs.

I second that. Babylon with Progress, Forbidden Palace and Industry just gets everything built much faster than any other civ, as long as you have the gold. If I replace Industry with Rationalism I simply unlock techs faster but I'm unable to benefit from them as fast as I could with Industry, whether it's getting public schools and research labs (which gives you more science) or upgrading my units. Rationalism definitely gives more science, you just can't benefit from it as fast as you would like to.

Rationalism will probably make you win faster in the ideal conditions, but if you have to deal with a problematic AI or unhappiness, Industry will help you more.