Babylon

[Funak]

With free scientist and free library + tech from great library you can get your masonry anyway. Free tech and bonus from academy and library is massive at this stage.

Anyway, there are civs that really require specific start to perform well (iroqois, celts, inca and so on). I think that babylon isn't restricted (although heavy start is great for science, with some to grab certain wonders like great library and porcelain tower).

While I completely agree with the great library, your reasoning behind is is awful
Free library means nothing, free tech is pretty much lost instantly because of how catch-up mechanics work. However the GL gives you great scientist points for free, which is awesome for babylon.

 

[Atlas627]

While I completely agree with the great library, your reasoning behind is is awful
Free library means nothing, free tech is pretty much lost instantly because of how catch-up mechanics work. However the GL gives you great scientist points for free, which is awesome for babylon.

Awful is a strong word. The free library is a lot of hammers that early, and the scientist slot is crucial. Literacy, Great Scientist points, and hard science. Delicious. And the GL itself gives a good amount of science. And the free tech is excellent if you plan to beeline something. Like the Oracle for more Great Scientist points

 

[Funak]

Awful is a strong word. The free library is a lot of hammers that early, and the scientist slot is crucial. Literacy, Great Scientist points, and hard science. Delicious. And the GL itself gives a good amount of science. And the free tech is excellent if you plan to beeline something. Like the Oracle for more Great Scientist points

Well, you get the scientist slot for building a normal library as well, and that costs less hammers

 

[Atlas627]

Well, you get the scientist slot for building a normal library as well, and that costs less hammers

Of course, but you said it means "nothing". The Great Library's bonuses on top of the free library are worth the extra hammers and then some, so you're also getting a discount on building the library in the first place. And the library is worth what you would have normally spent, so this discount is pretty damn good.

 

[hokath]

How is Babylon doing in the post One Thousand and One Nights/Korea UA change CBP? Anyone played them recently?

 

[Funak]

The investment bonus is still bananas, if that's what you're asking.

 

[mavol6]

does the investment bonus from the ua stack with the similar industry policy?

 

[Funak]

does the investment bonus from the ua stack with the similar industry policy?

Yeah, it does. Takes the hammer-cost down to 20%(I think), which is rather bizarre actually.

 

[mavol6]

Yeah, it does. Takes the hammer-cost down to 20%(I think), which is rather bizarre actually.

well thats good i guess, i dont really know how to play babylon though. you can either go tradition and go for specialists, or progress for more gold to use on buildings and better infraestructure.

i dont really think babylon really competes against korea in science, i dont know about arabia.

 

[Funak]

well thats good i guess, i dont really know how to play babylon though. you can either go tradition and go for specialists, or progress for more gold to use on buildings and better infraestructure.

i dont really think babylon really competes against korea in science, i dont know about arabia.

Babylon is weirdly enough super-flexible, Tradition, Progress, Authority any of the trees are fine. The investment bonus helps you getting production-buildings up faster in your satellites and your free academy helps you stay ahead in science.
You have a pretty good unique building that both helps you with science and makes sure your cities are impossible to bring down early on, you've got a pretty meh unique unit that can be exploited in certain terrain to attack someone and take down cities.

Later on you still have the investment bonus which becomes even more useful as gold becomes plentiful player on and you have the bonus to gaining scientists, which is really useful as scientists later on are great for bulbing.

 

[BenchBreaker]

Last time I played Babylon was just after bank converting gold spent into science, I remember as Babylon I got huge amount of science from investing buildings, way more than 15%, dont know if it's something to do with the extra investment or just a bug that was fixed

 

[hokath]

Really? I guess if the function somehow boosts the amount of gold it thinks it is receiving there could conceivably be a bug there.

Off-topic slightly: the Bank change seems to have really brought the power level of Industry up in my estimations.

 

[Gazebo]

Last time I played Babylon was just after bank converting gold spent into science, I remember as Babylon I got huge amount of science from investing buildings, way more than 15%, dont know if it's something to do with the extra investment or just a bug that was fixed

It was because first release of that had the bank scaling with era! Oops. That was fixed though.

 

[ExpiredReign]

The fact the bowman doesn't obsolete until Metallurgy means you should always just build thosee and upgrade them because this way your ranged units will have the invaluable "Indirect fire" promotion.
Long after crossbowmen were available I was always just going for the quicker to produce bowmen because they are just that, quicker to produce, but that promotion makes it a very good unit for both defense and attack.

 

[Funak]

The fact the bowman doesn't obsolete until Metallurgy means you should always just build thosee and upgrade them because this way your ranged units will have the invaluable "Indirect fire" promotion.
Long after crossbowmen were available I was always just going for the quicker to produce bowmen because they are just that, quicker to produce, but that promotion makes it a very good unit for both defense and attack.

This is true and intended for pretty much all unique units, yes sure the gap between compbow and muskets is pretty big, but it's not really anything gamebreaking.

 

[Legen]

Revisiting this civ after a long time, seeing the "Ask me Anything" post where someone says it's just a worst Korea. I used to like this civ in Vanilla, so it's painful to see it not being competitive in Science with other scientific civs. Notably with Korea, as both civs were considered to be main rivals for a Scientific Victory.

One note is the timing of the free scientist. In Vanilla, Writing was an Ancient Era technology that only required 1 tech (Pottery), while in VP, it's a Classical Era technology that requires 5 (Trapping, Pottery, The Wheel, Trade, Calendar). That means the free academy isn't necessarily worse due to yield adjustment, but due to how far later it comes, losing all of its impact. In Vanilla, it would double or triple one's science output when planted; in VP, it won't likely be even a 50% increase.

Similarly, the tech unlocking the UB requires only 1 tech in Vanilla (Mining), but 2 in VP (Mining, Animal Husbandry). The original UB didn't have the extra science that it has now, but it didn't meant Babylon had to delay its technologies away from Writing's prerequisites in order to have an early unique source of science. Babylon could beeline Writing and use the free academy to quickly reach the UB with little opportunity cost. This cost is greatly increased in VP.

Compared to Korea, there's also the Tradition branch giving access to multiple specialist slots with no production cost, allowing Korea to benefit from it's UA long before Babylon has access to its free scientist. In Vanilla, Babylon would have a free academy by the time Korea starts building its first building with a specialist slot (Library). The extra +15% GP generation on Tradition also helps Korea in closing the GS generation of Babylon, as it stacks additively. Tradition Korea in a Golden Age (+45%) is pretty close to Babylon's UA, even if Babylon also chooses Tradition. Given that there are more sources of +X% , a +50% GS isn't as impressive as it used to be.

Overall, I think Babylon suffers from the delayed timing it got in VP, while its rivals were sped up. The extra GS generation is less relevant with the extra sources of GP in the game, and noticeably challenged by the added +30% GP during golden ages of Korea.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't think Babylon is just a worse Korea. The investment bonus is extremely strong and makes him a flexible civ. Korea has great raw power for what he does, but really lacks flexibility.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't think Babylon is just a worse Korea. The investment bonus is extremely strong and makes him a flexible civ. Korea has great raw power for what he does, but really lacks flexibility.

Agreed.The bonus isn't 'sexy' but it has production curves.

G

 

[Legen]

I mean, the strength of Babylon wasn't raw science like Korea, but the extremely early timing of its UA; you had a great scientist before any civ even had a specialist slot to work. And, iirc, the current timing is an artifact of the Technology tree rework, rather than something planned. Some civs had their uniques adjusted to come earlier (Maya's UA, Brazilwood Camp) or gained extremely early uniques (India's turn 1 pantheon), so it makes particular sense to review Babylon's UA timing, as it was a major aspect of the civ.

Readjusting the UA's timing shouldn't come with any sacrifice to Babylon's flexibility either; an earlier GS can even increase it. I remember older posts stating that the investment bonus was meant to allow Babylon's production to keep up with its science speed, as the civ would unlock buildings way faster than the civ could build and benefit from them. An Ancient Era academy would mean giving more options to invest earlier and lower opportunity cost of choosing a tech that isn't a prerequisite to Construction (where the UB is).

 

[Txurce]

@Legen:

You're probably right that the nerfing of the GS was an inadvertent result of the Tech tree reworking, but I think that the investment bonus was created to buff the overall civ back up to roughly where it had been.

I think CrazyG was refering to the investment bonus as a key element of what provides Babylon flexibility. It doesn't need have anything to do with raw science. They can expand and acquire luxuries to sell... focus on CS, villages and merchant specialists to maximize the bonus... and so on.

Now, does Korea do better overall? I think so -- especially in the AI's hands -- but that's okay. They were better in my opinion in vanilla as well. And the difference doesn't strike me as all that great.