[BNW] Babylon

[zxcvbob]

I know this civ is supposed to be overpowered, but I have trouble playing it. The AI often seems to have trouble too. I started a game last night; emperor level on a Pangaea map. I started out in an otherwise good area but without fresh water, so I went Tradition. Managed to build Great Library, Hanging Gardens, and Colossus. I dedicated the extra trade route to sending food to my capital, although it had to be a caravan instead of a cargo ship. I settled one other great city before I got boxed in by my neighbors, and then two more islands that had plenty of resources. One of those islands had coal, and I had oil on the mainland. Sounds okay, right? No, the AI's (especially Pacal) were stealing techs from me right and left -- my counterspy was impotent or something -- and after a while I was actually lagging in science. I was the 4th to pick an ideology. Pacal declared war on me, and I was killing his units like crazy but he seemed to be building replacements almost as fast. I could have won that war eventually but I quit the game because I was obviously doing something wrong.

I think maybe I finally figured it out. The free great scientist at Writing is not so you can go crazy with science and quickly zoom to the top, it is so you can ignore science for a while and focus on things that are more urgent. Plant the academy on a good tile that's worth working even w/o it, and you don't need a library for a good long time (you don't have enough population yet anyway.) What you need are bowmen, spears, markets, and settlers, etc. The library will still be there waiting when it's time to build it. I started that same game over using that strategy and it is going *so* much better. I'm the tech leader but it's not a huge lead yet (just jumped from the Renaissance to the Modern era via Radio and I'm ready to pick the first ideology) and I have a strong empire to go with it. I settled 3 cities on the mainland instead of just 2 and captured/annexed Berlin with a bowman rush. Built Hanging Gardens, then I finally got around to a library (not the Great Library.) Now wondering whether I want to go domination or science for the win.

 

[beetle]

@zxcvbob with your first game, did you plant the Writing GS or bulb it? But more importantly, yes, that is a nice set of Wonders! But as you note, the opportunity cost was two cities instead of three. It seems obvious to me, that factor was the biggest difference between play. I do not see how you can compare replaying the map (which is something I do frequently) where one time you had two cities and the other time three — and conclude that because in the two-city game you also happened to have a Library early — that prioritizing having a Library early is the mistake!

Yes, with Babylon, you want to get to Writing quickly. But that is because you always want to get to Writing quickly! I think that is why people like Babylon — it rewards doing the things that one usually does for competitive play! Most players like getting a few archers out early, maybe as part of rushing the neighbor. Babylon archers are significantly stronger! Most player prioritize Writing. Babylon gives you an Academy for Writing! Free GS later, great! @consentient breaks it down.

If you want an honest comparison of your play styles, go back to that first games, and get another Settler out early. If you miss Hanging Gardens or Colossus, fine. Did you get Philosophy from Great Library? If not, skip that too.

I agree with you that having an early Library is not so much a big deal, and probably it is even less important for Babylon (since you have the Academy).

 

[plus]

im always behind in tech,but must use terrain to your advantage to win.i always go domination,war is everything for me in civ5.key point is balance,tech,science,population.

 

[Nizef]

It is hard to tell what "went wrong" in your example. Going Pottery-Writing with Babylon can´t be a bad solution in itself. The 8 science per turn you get from planting the GS is very very strong. Building HG also seems logical since you didn´t have fresh water. But the early wonders are, in my eyes, more and more questionable or even weak play. Thus, I do not see the point in building GL with Babylon. You will get a new tech in 3-4 turns anyway and building the GL early will take at least/roughly 10 turns of production. And that is production that could have been used for a Settler or Worker+Archer or something else. The basic principles of the game can´t be ignored: you need population growth for science and to be able to do that you (in the early game) need to get your expands out asap and get 2-5 tiles per city improved asap. It is also a basic misconseption that you shouldn´t build expands after NC if you go Tradition. A fifth and even a sixth city will serve your empire well in the late game, making it possible for you to pull away from the AIs.

 

[zxcvbob]

@beetle: I always plant the first scientist, no matter what civ I'm playing. (and I bulb the rest, but not necessarily right away) With Babylon, what I haven't figured out yet is how many academies do I want.

I've played a lot of Babylon lately since I discovered this (beeline Writing, use the scientist for an academy and lock that tile, then don't waste your production on libraries (great or otherwise) until your cities get some pop to them. And it doesn't matter if your national college is a little late. Those early hammers are better spent on *anything* but libraries. (well, maybe not anything) Especially settlers, scouts, spears, and bowmen. It works well; I get some decent real estate while it's still available and maybe eliminate or severely cripple my nearest neighbor. And I stay even with the AI's in science or maybe even a little ahead because of the academy.

Previously I was rushing a library and national college (usually with one expo and buying a library there) and by then the AI's were forward settling me and there were few good places left to settle.