Backwards way to build Pyramids

svv

Prince
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Aug 10, 2006
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Here is a way to get Pyramids if you are not industrious, and have no access to stone. This works on Noble, but not consistently. It would be even more iffy on a higher difficulty level.

This method basically involves bee-lining metal casting, building a forge, hiring an engineer specialist, and waiting for a great engineer to be born. It works best if your leader is financial (to research metal casting sooner) and/or philisophical (to cut the time for the great engineer to be born). Of course Lizzy would be ideal, but I've also done it with Mansa Musa (financial, but not philosophical).

This is on Vanilla. I think a much easier way to do basically the same thing if you have Warlords is to build the great wall first, and get your great engineer from that. I don't have Warlords, so can't comment on that method.

First, you'll need to research fishing or agriculture, mining, bronze working, wheel (hopefully you start with a couple of those), pottery, and metal casting.

You're best off if you have good sources of early commerce. If you're financial, coast tiles (if you have fishing) and oasises work well. After you get pottery, building cottages in flood plains also helps. Of course, if you're lucky enough to get gold/gems/silver, they would be great.

Research bronze working early for the whip and the chop. Go ahead and build/whip/chop a granary when you can. After you have all the others, start on metal casting. It will tell you the research will take a long time (around 80 turns on marathon) but that number should come down quickly as your population develops and you develop commerce improvements.

When metal casting research nears completion, start pre-chopping a couple forests, and make sure your population is built up a bit. If you have a population of 6 and a couple forests pre-chopped, then after you change your production order to forge you should be able to chop the two forests and whip the forge right away. Next turn, make sure you hire an engineer specialist.

Now you wait several turns for a great engineer to be born. The wait will be halved if you are philosophical.

One of the nice things about this is that, while you're researching metal casting, and then again while you're waiting for the engineer to be born. you can go ahead and do other things. In my last game I founded a second city by some copper, researched writing, built a barracks and library in my capital, and axe-rushed one of my neighbors (of course you need copper for this last action). You also could build a lot of settlers and workers. Just make sure you keep an engineer specialist hired in the forge city (especially if you whip again).

Before the great engineer is born, make sure you set aside time to research masonry. You might not have time to research both writing and alphabet while waiting, so you may have to do masonry before alphabet.

After the great engineer is born, he can build the Pyramids right away. This will usually be in your forge city where he was born, but it doesn't have to be. In my last game I found my deceased neighbor's former capital had seven food resources, so I decided to make that my GP farm/Wonder City, and sent the great engineer down to build the pyramids there (meanwhile working on granary and forge asap).

Another advantage to this is that it gives you a great start on the best of all possible GP farms - the Great Engineer Farm. With the forge/engineer specialist, you've already go two great engineer-generating sources. You're close to mathematics for a third, the hanging gardens. This city can generate huge GP points with little or no hammers, relying on great engineers to build the tough wonders (especially those for which you don't have the resources to double build time, such as stone/marble/copper). I'll usually also build some other wonders there, such as Colossus and Great Library.

In my last game as Lizzy/Noble/Marathon, I had the engineer about BC 800, and still had a few turns to walk him down to my newly-designated GP Farm/Wonder City.

Finally, if somebody builds the pyramids before you do all this, it's no disaster. You still have a forge and a great engineer to build something else, and meanwhile your cities have been working on something else most of the time.
 
Another option is go for Oracle and pick up MC that way; problem with that is getting the forge built early enough so you get the GE before Oracle produces a Prophet. There was quite extensive discussion about this a few months back. I think it was futurehermit who floated this particular stratagem.
 
I've tried that way and haven't been able to swing it. You'd need to build oracle in a different city to avoid spitting out a great prophet instead of a great engineer. It might still work if you've got marble but not stone.
 
I've tried that way and haven't been able to swing it. You'd need to build oracle in a different city to avoid spitting out a great prophet instead of a great engineer. It might still work if you've got marble but not stone.

That's not the most difficult thing to do. Just get a worker to prechop 2 forests or put 30 hammers into the forge's production and slave one unit of population. These methods will build the forge very quickly after the completion of the Oracle. Since the forge's specialist provides 3GPP and the Oracle only provides 2GPP, you only need start working an engineer specialist within 50 turns (marathon) of completing the Oracle.

I've regularly used something similar to gain access to early cho-ko-nus (a great engineer will always research machinery over anything else). I can't say whether or not the engineer is generated before the Pyramids have been built.

Incidentally, the Great Wall was changed in 2.08 to only give 1 great person point per turn. This was done so that the Great Wall could be less easily used to get the Pyramids.
 
I just tried using worldbuilder to put an Oracle in the same city as the forge/engineer. It's giving me 50 percent chance of prophet, 50 percent engineer.

I think I read somewhere that, even though there may be more or fewer gp points from different sources, the percentage chance for each type of gp depends only on the number of sources - the points contriubted by each are irrelevant. That seems to be consistent with my observations here, but it may be dependent on patch/version.

So from what I have, if you build oracle and forge/engineer in the same city, you're taking a 50/50 chance that you'll get a great prophet instead. On the other hand, you're getting 5gpp/turn (10gpp/turn with philosphical) instead of 3gpp/turn (6 with philosophical) with just the forge/engineer. So, maybe it's worth taking the chance - maybe you'll be able to build a second GP if the first one's a prophet.
 
I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate. If you have a great engineer working in a city with the Oracle built, it would be 5gpp per turn, 60% engineer, 40% prophet, for as long as you get the engineer in that city early enough. Of course, you could just work the engineer in another city immediately and let the 3gpp for the engineer beat the 2gpp from the oracle, and not risk it.

Or, if the pyramids are what you want, you could use all those hammers to build a bunch of catapults and axemen and show up by the civ's city where it was built.

I just tried using worldbuilder to put an Oracle in the same city as the forge/engineer. It's giving me 50 percent chance of prophet, 50 percent engineer.

I think I read somewhere that, even though there may be more or fewer gp points from different sources, the percentage chance for each type of gp depends only on the number of sources - the points contriubted by each are irrelevant. That seems to be consistent with my observations here, but it may be dependent on patch/version.

So from what I have, if you build oracle and forge/engineer in the same city, you're taking a 50/50 chance that you'll get a great prophet instead. On the other hand, you're getting 5gpp/turn (10gpp/turn with philosphical) instead of 3gpp/turn (6 with philosophical) with just the forge/engineer. So, maybe it's worth taking the chance - maybe you'll be able to build a second GP if the first one's a prophet.
 
Another option is go for Oracle and pick up MC that way; problem with that is getting the forge built early enough so you get the GE before Oracle produces a Prophet. There was quite extensive discussion about this a few months back. I think it was futurehermit who floated this particular stratagem.
This was discussed extensively in the Frederick ALC game, in which it was also accomplished. I then tried to summarize how to do it in the Intermediate Tactics and Gambits article.
 
I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate. If you have a great engineer working in a city with the Oracle built, it would be 5gpp per turn, 60% engineer, 40% prophet, for as long as you get the engineer in that city early enough. Of course, you could just work the engineer in another city immediately and let the 3gpp for the engineer beat the 2gpp from the oracle, and not risk it.
That's incorrect. The % chance of a particular great person is based upon the number of sources of GPPs, not the amount of GPPs produced.

For example, +1 GPPs (prophet) from a shrine, +2 GPPs (merchant) from a wonder, and +3 GPPs (scientist) from a specialist would yield a 33% Prophet, 33% Merchant, and 33% Scientist, even though 50% of GPPs comes from a Scientist source.
 
Bonafide11:
I'm pretty sure that's inaccurate. If you have a great engineer working in a city with the Oracle built, it would be 5gpp per turn, 60% engineer, 40% prophet, for as long as you get the engineer in that city early enough. Of course, you could just work the engineer in another city immediately and let the 3gpp for the engineer beat the 2gpp from the oracle, and not risk it.

Or, if the pyramids are what you want, you could use all those hammers to build a bunch of catapults and axemen and show up by the civ's city where it was built.

No, he's right. The percentage chance is determined by the number of great person sources. The Oracle is a single source. The engineer specialist is a single source. If both are in use for the same length of time then it's a 50% chance of either great person being generated.

However - in the case of the strategy being discussed here where one city builds first the Oracle, uses it to research metal casting, and then builds a forge - there would be a greater chance of generating a great prophet since the Oracle would be present in the city for at least one turn more than the engineer specialist.

Svv:
So, maybe it's worth taking the chance - maybe you'll be able to build a second GP if the first one's a prophet.

You're talking about generating two great people before the Pyramids have been built. On top of that, the odds of an engineer on the second attempt will be 50% at the most so there's no guarantee of getting one then. Furthermore, it'll take 120 marathon turns to generate that second great person. Plus the 61+ turns to generate the first great person makes 181 turns to generate a great engineer (assuming you even get one). Simply rushing a forge in another city as soon as the Oracle has been completed can guarantee a great engineer in at least 101 turns (1 turn to rush, 100 to accumulate enough GPP).
 
I bloody well chop everything and the pyramids are fairly low on my list of wonders. I get metal casting early by building the oracle.
 
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