Balance Feedback

[MrWhereItsAt]

Can we redesignate Corporations as NOT World Wonders? Isn't it enough that there's already a 4 WW limit in RoM without having to choose between WW early on and Corporations?

 

[gruffydd]

I think the corp as Wonder is a strategy along with 4/city to reduce the likelihood of the economic/technological imbalance which players start to benefit from around ren/industrial era.

As far as balancing the game goes, and knowing that there is not the time nor expertise to heavily modifty the AI so that non-player empires can keep up, I'd suggest the following:

Seems to me the 'perfect-storm' runaway tech and economic imbalance issue is a combination of factors and not as simple as some have suggested. People have suggested getting rid of all new civics, removing Wonders, etc. But that sounds to me like Vanilla BTS a whole lot.

I think that the reason players get a huge late-game advantage is because of our abilities to recognize the patterns and put together a combined strategy to maximize the (admittedly rather large) bonuses from civics + wonders + buildings. So... all the new economic buildings for a seaport + plus a couple of key economic wonders (minaret, marco polo, etc.) + an early corp + free market = ridiculous money generated compared to AIs. Players see the pattern ("oh wow, this could be huge if I put these together") and plan to maximize their economies... I suspect AIs have no way of doing this beyond the vanilla BTS strategies provided by Firaxis.

Basically, AIs can't cope with the wealth of new combinations, buildings, and opportunities provided by RoM. Also, let's be honest, the Firaxis AI pushes the non-players to concentrate almost exclusively on making war, whereas in RoM you really do need a balance in the mid-game of economic/scientific so you can get far ahead later.

So... seems to me that there are a couple of ways to make the late-game balance a bit better. One, and I hate to say it, but some kind of late-game penalty applying only to human players (happiness/health/building seem easiest to code); two, increase production and research costs by at least 50% for industrial, 100% for modern, 250% for future era techs and buildings; three, reduce some of the resource requirements for bonus buildings, or make some buildings give access to resource.

The last point, about bonus buildings and resources, is really about the salt-stone-fish-meat fiasco. If you have access to salt, stone, at least one fish resource and at least one meat resource, you end up with bonuses by end of renaissance era that total something like: +15% production, +10%-+30% food, +3 health/city, +25% science, +10% maint +1 trade route/city +25% yield, and possibility to build a third +100% science world wonder. With a tiny bit of resource planning and a bit of luck, a tiny bit of building queue thinking (these are all cheap buildings as well.. butchery, tannery, glassblower, observatory, etc.), you can by the time you get to ~navigation in tech tree have an enormous economy running.

But, and here's the kicker... I'm not sure the AIs can see this, plan for it, or even if they do the salt/stone combination is rare enough that players can dominate it, park spies, etc. to ensure that only they get these game-breaking bonuses.

Solutions: remove the salt-requirement, make salt more common, make a building which produces salt, or something so that all civs have relatively simple access to this building strategy.

 

[arkham4269]

Basically, AIs can't cope with the wealth of new combinations, buildings, and opportunities provided by RoM. Also, let's be honest, the Firaxis AI pushes the non-players to concentrate almost exclusively on making war, whereas in RoM you really do need a balance in the mid-game of economic/scientific so you can get far ahead later.

I totally agree, if there is one thing I have noticed about Civ IV is that the AI in many ways got stupider. I remember playing the Civ III "Rise & Rule" mod and was amazed at how good the AI was at Naval Warfare. Now the AI seems to build lots of ships, even when it is a stupid idea to do it, rarely uses them except in pairing up of Frigates (or those damned Xebecs!). I've noticed that the AI seems to go out of it's way to 'pimp' out it's naval ships with the all the buildings it takes to build the strongest ships...then I walk in and take their cities since they aren't building enough land units to protect their cities. That and often I'd take a city after a turn or two and find 3-5 ships at port.

What's worse is that it seems all the AI's are warlike, even the Spi/Cre ones. One would think certain Civ's would go for different victory conditions. I mean is you're a Spi/Cre Civ, why try for a Conquest victory when all the Agg/Exp Civ's have innate advantages in that area? Better to at least work toward a Cultural win (or at least hope later in the game you've achieved a great tech lead).

Which brings up another point; culture is one thing, but I should think that there should also be a 'economic' victory possible, just like there was in Alpha Centauri. If you're a economic Civ like England, becoming the world's economic leader seems a viable strategy. I've played games where I've founded most of the Corps, but other than money, that doesn't seem to count for much. In the modern age, we KNOW that economic leverage is important. I wish the game simulated that better. Most of the time, being an economic power just makes the other AI's covet what you have so they're more inclined to attack you.

 

[Circuit]

Another issue is the "No State Religion" in the Government civics. Fortunately, no gameplay change, but all those government civics with "No state religion" could be a problem. It appears nearly impossible to have a state religion with it, though it is being ignored.

 

[JosEPh_II]

But, and here's the kicker... I'm not sure the AIs can see this, plan for it, or even if they do the salt/stone combination is rare enough that players can dominate it, park spies, etc. to ensure that only they get these game-breaking bonuses.

In most of my Games the AI possess this combo more often than I do, and their spies are rampant.

I think it also depends upon How You play. As a builder vs a conqueror.

JosEPh

 

[E_Pluribus_Unum]

Hi!

After playing many games til the end (RoM 2.0 with no extra addons), I can say that there is a culture and economy inbalance.

The Creative ability is too strong, 'cause the new religions, civics, and building that gave more % bonuses on . The balace is the next : 1 Space Race win, 1 Domination win, and all the others were culture win or loss. (There is not enoug time to fully research the thech tree.)
I suggest that change Creative +2 to +1 and/or raise legendary culture level and/or lower bonuses.

In late games (future era), the economy is going too strong. Need to lower some bonuses, 'cause now it's possible to run the tech at 100%, and still earn .

Hope this will change in 2.5.

BTW, great mod!

 

[konradcabral]

. The balace is the next : 1 Space Race win, 1 Domination win, and all the others were culture win or loss. (There is not enoug time to fully research the thech tree.)
I suggest that change Creative +2 to +1 and/or raise legendary culture level and/or lower bonuses.

My record is almost equal. The majority ends at Cultural Victory. I suggested raise the legendary culture level too, and even create more levels, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

In late games (future era), the economy is going too strong. Need to lower some bonuses, 'cause now it's possible to run the tech at 100%, and still earn .

Hope this will change in 2.5.

This richness overproduction is already smaller at 2.5, but it still have to go down a little.

 

[CMKMStephens]

Hi!

In late games (future era), the economy is going too strong. Need to lower some bonuses, 'cause now it's possible to run the tech at 100%, and still earn .

Hope this will change in 2.5.

BTW, great mod!

Just on this note, can you make it so that buildings values change with the advancement of certain techs or entry into eras? Personally I'm thinking something along the lines of Grocer and Markets declining from their 25% to 15% in Industrial, and 5-10% in modern with Supermarkets picking up the slack and going to 30% in modern. This represents a bit of reality, and helps lower gold production a bit. That is, if it's possible.