Balance Feedback

[Pohlmann]

i had a wyrm attacking a city of mine where 3 units were stationed and he blitzattacked all 3 and razed the city. this was mid to late game

 

[Calavente]

I Concure. Wyrms are badass. the closed the desert to any exploration until multi-unit parties comprising a Combat V assassin (to attack) or Combat V(on defense) could be sent across the desert.
bad worms those guys. a bit weak against assassin though.

 

[Tsathoggua]

Kelp has been nerfed. Doesn't grow as fast (down to half the rate of forests), and costs 3 movement rather than 6. Kelp Forests are at 4. A new feature Milaga added, that we will merge, will allow certain ships (Caravel, all Lanun) to ignore the Kelp movement rate.

I really don't understand the design mentality that led to introducing a move cost to Kelp. Realism isn't everything, and besides, it doesn't seem all that realistic to be honest.

Like, I could envision bireme-sized or smaller oar-driven vessels experiencing a mild speed decrease, like 1 extra point, but even then, these aren't canoes. They're driven by dozens of slaves who do nothing but turn oars until they die. Even 3 move seems like an awful lot, and the only time I could really imagine it being that difficult for a ship to move through even the thickest of Kelp beds is if it *started* its movement *in* that bed from a dead stop.

Just because the game imposes a quantization on the movement of ships doesn't mean it makes sense to imagine them endlessly starting/stopping on the way to their destination.

Since you're making certain ships immune to those effects entirely, please strongly consider including *all* large late-game ships. Arcane Barges, Queens-of-the-Line, etc. The highest move penalty from kelp really ought to be 1, but I'd consider 2 a begrudging compromise.

 

[azzedar]

well, youre thinking of our-world kelp.
i always imagined more like a sea-version of a giant natural entangle spell covering the upper parts of the ocean.
while i suppose arcane barges could ignore it as well, i mean theyre arcane

 

[Sarisin]

Sometimes you just have to laugh out loud with some of the things that happen in your game.

I moved a small stack of units lead by a strong Assassin and 2 strong War Elephants to a Lair. I had enough units so that I was able to use each to explore the lair. That's right, I had six explorations of the lair before it was finally destroyed.

Here is what I got on those six explorations:

1. 3 Lizardmen
2. 6 Minotaurs
3. 39 Gold
4. 2 Ogres
5. 5 Zombies
6. 2 Ogre Warchiefs (they were very strong, but only used ranged weapons on my units)

In sum, I got 18 bad guys and 39 Gold...and quite a bit of XP.

This was the first time I was able to explore the same lair that many times, but it just shows you how the odds are stacked against you in favor of getting nasties coming out of the lairs.

 

[Valkrionn]

I really don't understand the design mentality that led to introducing a move cost to Kelp. Realism isn't everything, and besides, it doesn't seem all that realistic to be honest.

Like, I could envision bireme-sized or smaller oar-driven vessels experiencing a mild speed decrease, like 1 extra point, but even then, these aren't canoes. They're driven by dozens of slaves who do nothing but turn oars until they die. Even 3 move seems like an awful lot, and the only time I could really imagine it being that difficult for a ship to move through even the thickest of Kelp beds is if it *started* its movement *in* that bed from a dead stop.

Just because the game imposes a quantization on the movement of ships doesn't mean it makes sense to imagine them endlessly starting/stopping on the way to their destination.

Since you're making certain ships immune to those effects entirely, please strongly consider including *all* large late-game ships. Arcane Barges, Queens-of-the-Line, etc. The highest move penalty from kelp really ought to be 1, but I'd consider 2 a begrudging compromise.

It was not intended for coasts (that was just a by-product). The intention was for the oceanic forests of kelp (which you get from Erebus Continent and World of Erebus) to slow movement, create blocks in inter-continental travel. It was NOT added for realism, but added to introduce variation in the movement costs of otherwise completely featureless, standard tiles.

 

[Viatos]

6. 2 Ogre Warchiefs (they were very strong, but only used ranged weapons on my units)

These guys and their assorted brethren are hideous to root out once somebody pops them on turn 20, but I don't think any of them voluntarily attack units. I haven't experimented with offering them workers or very damaged scouts, but for example they don't take cities even when they have better-then-90% odds against defenders.

 

[Tsathoggua]

It was not intended for coasts (that was just a by-product). The intention was for the oceanic forests of kelp (which you get from Erebus Continent and World of Erebus) to slow movement, create blocks in inter-continental travel. It was NOT added for realism, but added to introduce variation in the movement costs of otherwise completely featureless, standard tiles.

It ends up being nothing but an annoyance, especially on the ocean where few cities will even benefit from the increased tile yields. 3 move is still a huge penalty, and 6 made me wonder where you guys buy your drugs.

I'm glad it's being reduced but honestly, the open ocean *is* featureless, floating condom islands notwithstanding. If you want to discourage or hamper fire-and-forget naval voyages, then maybe there needs to be a couple more uber sea monsters, a la Leviathan, to spice things up -- and yes I know you're making super versions of everything. Or perhaps make all open ocean squares cost an extra move, or reduce all naval move capacity by one, and remove Kelp altogether.

It's really one of the most questionable additions in RiFE, bar none. Even if it worked as you say it was intended, it would just be something for the player and AI to have to path around. Personally I could do without it altogether.

 

[Sjru]

Seriously: Balseraph's hero Loki needs to be nerfed: He already has free entrance to your empire, even if you don't have open borders. He is immune to all type of combats, and worse, can cause unrest and capture your new cities.
Please, change him to be immortal like Scions council members (They can be killed, but they're immortal, so It doesn't matter much) or else, engabeable in combat, or any ways to repel him from your borders!
Also, using of Loki could, perhaps, bring diplomatic penalties (Liek, *sic* "Your units are influencing my citizens", maybe?)

It ends up being nothing but an annoyance, especially on the ocean where few cities will even benefit from the increased tile yields. 3 move is still a huge penalty, and 6 made me wonder where you guys buy your drugs.

I'm glad it's being reduced but honestly, the open ocean *is* featureless, floating condom islands notwithstanding. If you want to discourage or hamper fire-and-forget naval voyages, then maybe there needs to be a couple more uber sea monsters, a la Leviathan, to spice things up -- and yes I know you're making super versions of everything. Or perhaps make all open ocean squares cost an extra move, or reduce all naval move capacity by one, and remove Kelp altogether.

It's really one of the most questionable additions in RiFE, bar none. Even if it worked as you say it was intended, it would just be something for the player and AI to have to path around. Personally I could do without it altogether.

The sea is already filled with Krakens or sea Serpents (Thanks fall Under, though), and AI never sails. Seafaring is already too much discouraged in Rife, I don't see why nerf again ships.

 

[Valkrionn]

It ends up being nothing but an annoyance, especially on the ocean where few cities will even benefit from the increased tile yields. 3 move is still a huge penalty, and 6 made me wonder where you guys buy your drugs.

I'm glad it's being reduced but honestly, the open ocean *is* featureless, floating condom islands notwithstanding. If you want to discourage or hamper fire-and-forget naval voyages, then maybe there needs to be a couple more uber sea monsters, a la Leviathan, to spice things up -- and yes I know you're making super versions of everything. Or perhaps make all open ocean squares cost an extra move, or reduce all naval move capacity by one, and remove Kelp altogether.

It's really one of the most questionable additions in RiFE, bar none. Even if it worked as you say it was intended, it would just be something for the player and AI to have to path around. Personally I could do without it altogether.

Kelp will not be removed.

Please keep in mind, there will be civs which DO benefit from oceanic terrains. Kelp was put in early because I like it, and thought the Lanun could use a reason to go for something other than OO (Kelp Forests = FoL).

 

[Tsathoggua]

Seafaring is already too much discouraged in Rife, I don't see why nerf again ships.

Hence my objection to the large move penalty of Kelp. As I've said, even 3 is a *lot*.

 

[Opera]

Well, would it be up to me, I would make Kelp 2 moves, increase ships moves (unless they're already high, I don't remember) and make reefs impassable so they sometime cause 'trading holes' along coastlines.

 

[Tsathoggua]

Well, would it be up to me, I would make Kelp 2 moves, increase ships moves (unless they're already high, I don't remember) and make reefs impassable so they sometime cause 'trading holes' along coastlines.

This would be great.

 

[Calavente]

boats are already slower than road. (especially once you have hast, every unit moves 4tiles on road, and mostly 6 as manyunits have mobility 1 or 2+ mvt)

Normally boats should move quicker than land units as they can move quicker + dont' have to stop at night or for eating, or resting.

I think the 2 moves on kelp is a huge penalty to an already nerfed navy.
I like reefs being impassable,
Maybe make kelp add 0 mvt cost, but kelp forest cost +1or+2 ?
if you still want to have kelp cost movement, please allow kelp (or at least forest kelp) to be choped/removed by a fish-boat as forests/AF can be : maybe giving some instead of ...
so one can decide to allow free movement into it's own port cities.

 

[azzedar]

you forget that on the ocean is usually possible to avoid the kelp. with the high spawn at the moment its only the coast that is usually full of kelp at the mid and late game. if i remember right valk already said the growth will be reduced.
maybe its not going to be such a problem as you think with the new changes.

 

[Valkrionn]

Growth has been massively reduced, kelp will be choppable, and the oceanic growths can be avoided.

 

[azzedar]

Growth has been massively reduced, kelp will be choppable, and the oceanic growths can be avoided.

will there be a way to activly create kelp? in regard of lanun, fol civs and some day the new aquatic civs? (or anyone who wants his coasts as ship-unfriendly as possible)

 

[Valkrionn]

For the Bezeri, yes. For others... Maybe. Not sure.

 

[Cromagnum P.I.]

A couple mild complaints that may have already been brought up. I'm really interested in this mod. Fall Further introduced a lot of really neat new ideas and you guys seemed to have taken that ball and run with it. I am wondering though why it seems that workers have been nerfed so hard? I was using an industrious civ and it was still taking 4 turns to build a road with two levels of skilled on top of that. On of my favourite mechanics added to FF was that workers could build anything right off the bat, it just took them forever until you had the right tech. As it stands now even with an industrious civ I need an army of workers just to get anything done even after I've gotten the associated techs.

Also, Acheron (the dragon that leashes to a city) really did not need an upgrade. 35 str plus fear plus hero unit plus fire breath? She needs to be brought back into the realm of achievable to kill considering how early I've seen her pop. Please nerf her or add an option to custom game to remove her.
EDIT:
I'd also like to complain about the staggering amount of super fast moving barb units. When minotaurs start gunning into your empire every few turns it makes an already slow worker improvement pace take even longer since an archer defending that square is not a guarantee that it's safe. considering their strength they don't also need to be able to move so durned fast.

 

[Breez]

I would love a way to create kelp