admtanaka
Warlord
Good news on the mutation system; I'm looking forward to seeing the changes in action.
Balance Feedback
- Thread starter Valkrionn
- Start date
Blacklanner
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2010
- Messages
- 82
Frustrated at yet another enraged pillaging spree right now. Barbarians and animals are supposed to be dangerous in RIFE, and wild trolls may need some of their advantages to accomplish that, but right now they're really frustrating me. Its like the scorpion clan archers used to be, only randomly with 2 move speed and +60% str.
Defending improvements from trolls with warriors is very nearly impossible. They're a recon unit, so i can't promote vs them, they have high defense strength, receive defensive bonuses, have a first strike, have a high base withdrawal chance, don't take river penalties (first city is almost always riverside), and heal really rapidly.
Early game all i can do is cower in my city and hope they choose to suicide rather than pillage, unless i'm playing a civ that gets some overwhelming instant military advantage. I've had a couple games i just gave up because i got wave after wave of trolls who would strip pillage every improvement i had (re)built before charging my city, or worse yet just running off to lurk outside my borders.
Enraged trolls are the worst offenders because they can move and pillage, and there's no chance of killing one attacking with a warrior. would typically take at least 4 to zerg one down i think, worse if it ate an ai scout and has a few promotions. An enraged troll with combat II is harder for me to kill than orthus. And they're really common, so i can't afford to keep spending stacks of warriors for no reward.
Many games I've started building forts next to resources before trying to improve tiles, because its the only way i have a chance of defending it from pillaging by trolls. Even that doesn't always work, just gives a fair chance i won't get everything pillaged.
I think trolls need to spawn much later, get a massive defensive nerf, or not be able to pillage. I favor no pillaging, it would be consistent with most other recon units. Trolls are a similar pain in orbs, but in orbis you get a huge bonus from being in the capital, and another bonus for having a wall, so you can at least defend the adjacent tiles well if you build a palisade, then expand out later. They're also beast units, so once you get hunters they're easy to handle.
Defending improvements from trolls with warriors is very nearly impossible. They're a recon unit, so i can't promote vs them, they have high defense strength, receive defensive bonuses, have a first strike, have a high base withdrawal chance, don't take river penalties (first city is almost always riverside), and heal really rapidly.
Early game all i can do is cower in my city and hope they choose to suicide rather than pillage, unless i'm playing a civ that gets some overwhelming instant military advantage. I've had a couple games i just gave up because i got wave after wave of trolls who would strip pillage every improvement i had (re)built before charging my city, or worse yet just running off to lurk outside my borders.
Enraged trolls are the worst offenders because they can move and pillage, and there's no chance of killing one attacking with a warrior. would typically take at least 4 to zerg one down i think, worse if it ate an ai scout and has a few promotions. An enraged troll with combat II is harder for me to kill than orthus. And they're really common, so i can't afford to keep spending stacks of warriors for no reward.
Many games I've started building forts next to resources before trying to improve tiles, because its the only way i have a chance of defending it from pillaging by trolls. Even that doesn't always work, just gives a fair chance i won't get everything pillaged.
I think trolls need to spawn much later, get a massive defensive nerf, or not be able to pillage. I favor no pillaging, it would be consistent with most other recon units. Trolls are a similar pain in orbs, but in orbis you get a huge bonus from being in the capital, and another bonus for having a wall, so you can at least defend the adjacent tiles well if you build a palisade, then expand out later. They're also beast units, so once you get hunters they're easy to handle.
Milaga
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2008
- Messages
- 470
Defending improvements against 2 move barbarian units has always been hard. It is especially hard against units that don't like to dash themselves at your city gates. And if those units can climb peaks and have a high defensive strength (why, I don't really know) you are in for some trouble.
Take a look at the Less Dangerous Animals module. It has a few changes that make the wilderness much less dangerous.
It's a mild module that can be activated and deactivated without destroying saves.
Unfortunately, the nerf to Trolls is in my other set of modules and not Less Dangerous Animals, but rest assured the Trolls in the next release of LDA will be suitably neutered.
Early game recon units should not be able to pillage, I'm sure that's an oversight that will be corrected soon.
Blacklanner
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2010
- Messages
- 82
For the most part i like the balance of the wilderness early game. Tigers feel a touch strong, i think 0-3 or 1-2 first strikes might be better, but its a minor thing, and something interesting to watch out for. Giants and minotaurs can be a little gross, but they come in very limited numbers, and are usually very aggressive at killing themselves on your cities/forts. Wurms are sick in a large desert, but stupid when they spawn in a 2 tile puddle. I think strength wise they're ok, but they shouldn't spawn quite as early as they do. The biggest thing i have against wurms is the ai has no idea how to handle them. Also the whole fear and 50% withdrawal thing making them a pita to actually kill 
I think trolls could be an interesting and balanced challenge exactly as they are if they couldn't pillage. maybe without the random enrage thing too. I can see either way on that.
I think trolls could be an interesting and balanced challenge exactly as they are if they couldn't pillage. maybe without the random enrage thing too. I can see either way on that.
Perhaps Enrage could weaken a units defensive strength significantly. It doesn't seem like a berserk unit would make good use of terrain to defend themselves; more likely they'd attack on their own first. Having Enrage cause the unit to lose terrain defense bonuses and possibly a unit of defensive strength wouldn't do much in the late game, but would help against trolls and possibly also minotaurs.
Tsathoggua
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 127
A great idea in keeping with umpteen other games' representations of the idea of "Berserk".
Not that RiFE must be like everything else, but some concepts are hard-coded into gamers' minds by now.
Has there been any adjustment to the current 'feature' of mutations changing when you upgrade the unit?
Also, have the totally bizarre mutations (ex. -10 first strikes) been removed?
Thanks
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
- Not yet, I'll take a look at it.
- Cap depends on the effect in question. -First Strikes is capped at 3 applications, so the max you can have is -3 first strikes.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Hmm. How exactly are mutations changing when the unit is upgraded? I'm trying to reproduce this, but am unable to; Upgrading Warrior to Swordsman maintains the same mutations.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Nope, was in response to a post just above mine.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I didn't have that effect at all. So I suppose it's been fixed.
You're right about pillaging, I was always wondering if someone could take a look at pillaing at all. I was thinking, instead of the improvement being destroyed by pillage, it could get "pillaged improvement". It is not removed, but it's benefits are halted (Or cleaned) during a set period of turns, (to simulate the reconstruction from villagers). Such reconstruction should be able to be hurried by workers, and tiles that aren't worked by cities could take much more time to "heal".
I think Civ5 has regarded pillage in a similar way.
EDIT: Uh? No comments on this yet? Oh, I see... nobody cares, usual behaviour. I'll take note about that...
PPQ_Purple
Purple Cube
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2008
- Messages
- 5,468
Personally I dislike the idea. It would just add more complexity for the sake of complexity without giving any real benefit.
Also, there is something that was always bugging me about the Arcane trait.
It gives just one real benefit (the free Potency promotion). Meanwhile Spiritual gives that, Mobility and no anarchy.
So why is there a trait that does all that Arcane does but better. And why is Arcane so neglected?
Also, there is something that was always bugging me about the Arcane trait.
It gives just one real benefit (the free Potency promotion). Meanwhile Spiritual gives that, Mobility and no anarchy.
So why is there a trait that does all that Arcane does but better. And why is Arcane so neglected?
Spiritual gives potency to Disciple units, not Arcane units. Arcane trait also doubles the build speed of Mage guild. Conclussion: Yes, it is totally neglected, potency is not so special after all, just -10% magic resistance to target.
But I've heard that they'll work on traits, so, hopefully, the issue will be resolved.
But I've heard that they'll work on traits, so, hopefully, the issue will be resolved.
I don't know if it is a balance issue or a bug :
in the victory conditions I had (for religious)
FoL 12%, Esus 0%
Esus is present in at least 10 cities out of 17 cities in the whole world.
I think it might be related to the fact that CoE in any city is hidden from the other civs if they don't have CoE as state religion.
Thus it is not counted toward religion victory.
So I don't know if the victory condition doesn't work for CoE (bug)
or if CoE is deprived of victory condition (balance issue).
in the victory conditions I had (for religious)
FoL 12%, Esus 0%
Esus is present in at least 10 cities out of 17 cities in the whole world.
I think it might be related to the fact that CoE in any city is hidden from the other civs if they don't have CoE as state religion.
Thus it is not counted toward religion victory.
So I don't know if the victory condition doesn't work for CoE (bug)
or if CoE is deprived of victory condition (balance issue).
The number of other religions present in the city dilutes the percent of the city's population that follows that religion. So if Esus was the only religion in a 10 pop city, and the world had a total of 100 pop, it would be worth 10%. But if that city also had FoL, RoK, Order, and Empyeran, it would only represent 2% (1/5th of the city's 10 pop).
However, it seems likely that even if all religions were present in the cities that had Esus, it should account for more than 0%.
However, it seems likely that even if all religions were present in the cities that had Esus, it should account for more than 0%.
actually, esus is sole religion in at least 5 cities, 3 of those being some of the 5 biggest cities.
esus is currently present in all the biggest cities, as any other city was war-reduced.
But 0 is quite small
especially as the other religions are : FoL (3-4 cities) Empy (2-3 cities) and OO (1city) (no Rok nor Order nor AV)
esus is currently present in all the biggest cities, as any other city was war-reduced.
But 0 is quite small
especially as the other religions are : FoL (3-4 cities) Empy (2-3 cities) and OO (1city) (no Rok nor Order nor AV)
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Arcane will be massively strengthened in 1.4, as it will boost your mana generation rate.
I'll check it out.
