Balancing Anti Tank Infantry and Mechanized Infantry

[Axios]

Hi everyone,
after 26 game on Civ IV Bts(3.19) I think that is more realistic that Mechanized Infantry require Oil for his construction.
Civilizations without Oil can use Anti Tank Infantry which have these bonuses:
+ 100% versus Tank & Panzer
+ 150% versus Modern Armor
+ 125% versus Mechanized Infantry

What do you think about this idea?

PS: sorry for my "not perfect" English. I'm Italian and I try to improve my English

 

[Buck_Nekkid]

Your English is very good.

 

[HappyFunPal]

I'd rather require modern units to be a little more like Civ3

I'd like Riflemen to require iron as well.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Hi everyone,
after 26 game on Civ IV Bts(3.19) I think that is more realistic that Mechanized Infantry require Oil for his construction.
Civilizations without Oil can use Anti Tank Infantry which have these bonuses:
+ 100% versus Tank & Panzer
+ 150% versus Modern Armor
+ 125% versus Mechanized Infantry

What do you think about this idea?

It's a very, very bad idea, as forcing iron for infantry.

Thinking that anti tank work that well against modern infantry is wrong. Theirs strength is not the lightly armored vehicles, but the weapon quality, organisation, etc. Destroying there vehicle is effective, but not by that much, so it's really ridiculous to add +125% for anti tank weaponry

In the same trend, iron is NOT a requirement to do modern equipment, it's just too easy to get. The massive amount needed for navy may need a real source, but making M16 does not need that much metal. And, I will say it again, modern infantry need a pitiful amount of oil compared to heavy tank or plane, and is a lot less impeded if it doesn't.

 

[binhthuy71]

Welcome to the forums!
In Civ III, Mech Infantry required both Oil and Rubber. Rubber was required to build Infantry as well. Oil was also required to build aircraft and modern ships. The consequence was that if you had no Oil then you were in serious trouble for late game warfare. If you had neither Rubber nor Oil then you'd best build a ton of riflemen and cross your fingers. It was not an infrequent occurrence to be missing one or the other and occasionally you would have neither one.
I'd guess that the reason that Civ IV dropped Oil as a requirement for Mech Inf as well as allowing you to build modern ships and jet fighters if you have Uranium was to preclude a player being left high and dry for late game military units.

 

[Bruin.Bound]

So what exactly is "mechanical infantry" supposed to be? It looks like a tank to me, but doesn't use oil so apparently it has no motor. Is it powered by the Fred Flinstone pick it up and run with your feet technique? I actually don't mind from a game standpoint, as it keeps the non-oil players competitive, but I've always wondered what it was.

 

[TheLazyHase]

So what exactly is "mechanical infantry" supposed to be? It looks like a tank to me, but doesn't use oil so apparently it has no motor. Is it powered by the Fred Flinstone pick it up and run with your feet technique? I actually don't mind from a game standpoint, as it keeps the non-oil players competitive, but I've always wondered what it was.

Well, it's modern infantry, i.e. people with more modern gun and technic than WW2 infantry. It's mechanized because it used lightly armored vehicle to move and general motoruization is a lot more included in warfare than in previous era ; still, where a tank is basically helpess without oil, mechanized infantry can go out of the tank and do the job.

You may (rightly) argue that the 2-movement should be gone if you don't have oil ; but then again you need a lot less oil for transport your troop than to run heavy tank.

That's the same as not needing oil for airport, or iron for rifleman. Granted, you should have a little of it to make it work ; but it's just not really possible to starve you from oil to the point you can't have troop transport in modern era.

 

[The Tollan]

If Mechanized Infantry is an infantry unit and the vehicle is used for transportation and some combat roles with many of the foot soldiers frequently fighting outside it then anti-tank units (both the AT Infantry and the Helicopter Gunships) would get no bonus against it.

If, however, Mechanized Infantry is purely or mostly a combat vehicle or the soldiers only fight from the vehicle then it would make sense for the anti-tank units (including the Helicopter Gunship) to get a bonus against it though not as large as against a tank (the AT Infantry would maybe only get a small bonus). Of course such changes as this would require other unit changes.

I tend to agree with LazyHase that the Mechanized Infantry is supposed to be primarily an infantry unit. The soldiers fighting on foot would be effecive against anti-tank Infantry which would roughly offset the combat vehicle's vulnerability to the AT infantry's weapon.

The graphical appearance of Mechanized Infantry is very problematic. I was not sure for along time what the unit really is because of the combat and other animations in the game. The game never shows any foot soldiers, which can give the impression that the unit is purely a combat vehicle instead of being an infantry unit with vehicle transportation and support. The unit does have an infantry speech style, promotions, and other characteristics but the graphics and combat animation never show the infantry characteristics much.

I think that two modern looking foot soldiers should be displayed standing, fortifying, and fighting next to the vehicle to show the infantry. When the unit is moving from tile to tile then the soldiers could disappear unit the move is completed (possibly by having an animation showing them getting in and out). If the graphic was changed then the unit's status as infantry would be less ambigious.

Edit: I posted about this idea on the unit graphic customization area and got a response about how to make soldiers appear next to the vehicle. The method the poster recommended works great. I set up minor mod for this unique graphic and now I have some foot soliders fighting alongside the IFV.

 

[Axios]

My idea consider that "Mechanized Infantry" is like M2 Bradley IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle

so I think that a civ without Oil can use a improved Anti Tank Infantry for improve balancing versus Mechanized Infantry

I haven't consider previosus Civs because I haven't play neither Civ III or Civ II

Other examples:
Against air units: oil -> mobile SAm, no Oil -> SAM infantry
Navy require Oil or Uranium. No ship has no resource requirements. So no Oil or Uranium -> wooden navy only.
Also gunships require Oil.

Thanks for replies.

 

[TheLazyHase]

My idea consider that "Mechanized Infantry" is like M2 Bradley IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2/M3_Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle

Then again, they are for TRANSPORT and SUPPORT FIRE. So why should anti tank get such a large bonus ?

THoses vehicles are iconic of modern army, but they are infantry support. Infantry without them is still a force to be reconned with, and far more potent than the WW2 infantry, thank to better weaponry and other improvement. As someone else say, the unit in CivIV is misleading, because it's not the vehicle that do the job.

so I think that a civ without Oil can use a improved Anti Tank Infantry for improve balancing versus Mechanized Infantry

But it does not talk about the main problem : why oil requirement ? You could see at wich quantity of oil use armored division and infantry division, and see why it's not such an hard requirement. Beside, you can make thoses soldat go on foot, use other thing than oil motor, etc. As far as I know, no plane can fly with something else than oil, and I highly doubt that electrical tank can work for now, they are by far too heavy.

 

[binhthuy71]

But it does not talk about the main problem : why oil requirement ? You could see at wich quantity of oil use armored division and infantry division, and see why it's not such an hard requirement. Beside, you can make thoses soldat go on foot, use other thing than oil motor, etc. As far as I know, no plane can fly with something else than oil, and I highly doubt that electrical tank can work for now, they are by far too heavy.

You really wouldn't need oil for mech infantry: every two turns the infantrymen could just jump out and wind it up again.

 

[TheLazyHase]

You really wouldn't need oil for mech infantry: every two turns the infantrymen could just jump out and wind it up again.

Why wind it up ? Horse still exist

 

[Axios]

Other cosiderations:
M3 Bradley IFV (infantry fighting vehicle) "As with other infantry fighting vehicles, the Bradley is designed to transport infantry while offering at least some armored protection and while providing covering fire to dismounted troops and suppressing enemy tanks and armored vehicles." is much more similar to a M1A2 Abrams MBT (main battle tank) than a Humvee

If you sustain that "mechanized infantry" is a infantry unit it should be represented by an humvee ("The HMMWV was designed primarily for personnel and light cargo transport behind front lines." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Mobility_Multipurpose_Wheeled_Vehicle#Usage_in_combat) or a APC (armored personnel carrier)

In Civ if you see AntiTank Infantry and SAM Infantry are represented by soldiers on foot but in true life they reach the battlefield in humvee or APC

In true life if you would to attack a M3 Bradley you must use a stinger or a TOW or you need a tank.

at this point 2 possibilities:

1) mech infantry change graphic representation: a humvee with 2 soldiers on foot entrenchd in front of the humvee and a third ssoldier on the humvee using .50 caliber machine gun. And doesn't require Oil.

2) introducing a new unit: "light armored infantry vehicle" a humvee with 2 soldiers on foot entrenchd in front of the humvee and a third ssoldier on the humvee using .50 caliber machine gun. And doesn't require Oil. With a bonus agaist Anti Tank Infantry.

Regarding AntiTank Infantry in Civ: his bonus is only against Tank and Panzer because if you want attack a "modern armor" you must use a gunship, but if you don't have Oil, no gunship. So I propose to give a anti "modern armor" bonus to AntiTank Infantry.

 

[tom345]

I think Mechanized infantry should require coal as they are one of the best units in the game.Thus it should be harder for the AI to easily defend cities with huge stacks of mechanized infantry.

 

[Willem]

So I propose to give a anti "modern armor" bonus to AntiTank Infantry.

My solution was to add 2 more Ambush promotions, that were only available to the Anti-Tank unit.