Barbarian Identity and Hidden nationality.

[WarKirby]

A thought I've had, about the general lack of feasability for Hidden Nationality against human opponents.

Generally, someone can see your pasty white hunter, see that you're the only svartalfar player, and add up the facts. This gives humans an advantage, in that a computer can't so easily make this distinction.

I know xienwolf has a plan in mind, to allow the AI to think. And it's certainly a good idea. I have a thought that could possibly be done alongside it.

First, the basics. A new Barbarian faction. Call them "Raiders" or "Bandits" or "Outlaws". Something of that nature. Leader would be either Mammon (for the greed displayed in robbing people) or Esus (for the deceptive nature)

Generally, the raiders would be a mix of enemies from all kinds of races. Every society has it's outlaws, exiles, highwaymen, etc. Such bandits are a common appearance in many RPGs, so the practical omission of them here seems odd. It would also serve to stave off some of the apparent racism against orcs since every orc is a savage, and every savage is an orc. Except those who are very obviously just pretending to be.


Raiders would have similar teching to orcish savages, gaining techs already known to civs slowly. And would spawn units on the map in a similar manner. The difference here, is that when a Raider unit spawns, it would have an artstyle randomly selected for it. Perhaps from all possible races currently in the game. Or perhaps just all races, period, if that's too complex. But importantly, Orcish and Undead should be exempt. This would serve to create a varied mix of raider enemies, incorporating elves, dwarves, lizardmen, and various human factions.



The second aspect here, is the appearance of hidden nationality units. Currently, all HN units appear as orcs to others. But really, you can tell at a glance who is or isn't an orc, so they're not fooling anyone.

Instead, the "appearance faction" of an HN unit would be dynamically decided, based upon what it is. Using these simple rules.

1. If the unit has Orcish racial promo, then it appears as a savage under control of Bhall
else
2. If the unit has Undead, Demon, Elemental, or Golem racial promo, it appears as a demon under control of Agares
else
3. If the unit is an animal (has UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL or the bAnimal tag) it appears as a wild animal under control of Cernunnos.
else
4. It appears as a Raider, under control of Esus.

The new faction would essentially be a catch-all fallback for any unit that doesn't specifically fit into a category. This, combined with the random racial selection, would mean that the dark elf hunter you see over there might not actually be a svartalfar unit. It could very likely be a Raider. And it would appear as one.

This doesn't solve the problem of hidden nationality heroes, but to be honest I don't think anything could ever make Alazkan appear incognito. It would however, completely solve the issue of instantly knowing where an HN unit came from, without the need for any AI work. Of course, AI work is still very nice.

Thoughts, everyone?

 

[Brokenbone]

While an extra faction seems a "little much", it may enhance multiplayer since pasty elves are a dead giveaway in your territory killing your workers, aren't they?

As an extra faction though, I wonder if they might end up having PEACE with someone who does an appropriate Esus ritual of some sort... "Protection Racket" or something to that end.

Them popping some of their own heroes might be cute. "The Bandit Lord Nietz" cropping up with ridiculously high withdrawal rates and whatever the tweaked Raider promo is in FF (where every step you take, you pillage something), would be a far, far more annoying foe than Orthus for a midgame played by a devoted builder. Possibly all those Pirates who currently belong to Bhall would end up part of the world of HN bandits.

Anyhow, if the emphasis could be focussed on economic damage or something, could be fun. Barbs and Demons beeline your cities, Animals just harass folks in the wild, but Bandits might just do horrible things to your infrastructure with zero interest in your cities. Blockades, pillaging, killing workers, all that good stuff that you're used to seeing human players with HN units do.

 

[Deon]

This seems like a great idea for me. I was thinking along the same lines.

 

[WarKirby]

As an extra faction though, I wonder if they might end up having PEACE with someone who does an appropriate Esus ritual of some sort... "Protection Racket" or something to that end.

I was thinking it might be fun to have the Hippus start at peace with them, and perhaps others. Also a focus on pillaging and looting might be nice.

But the idea here, is not a new faction just for a gameplay mechanic, but to act as a system to make the entire hidden nationality concept more believable. Consider it more of an organizational idea.

 

[WarKirby]

Possibly all those Pirates who currently belong to Bhall would end up part of the world of HN bandits.

Oh yes, this too. Orcs building ships doesn't make much sense. All barbarian ships should be moved to Raiders. Well, except Sailor's Dirge. That's an Agares thing.

 

[Valkrionn]

Sounds like a more in-depth version of what I wanted to do... I like it.

 

[far_wanderer]

I heartily approve of this idea, both on its own merits and because I see it leading to more of a focus for the savages. No one should be able to be at peace with them, though, as flavorful as it may seem, because then that defeats the purpose of using them to make hidden nationality make sense.

One other minor change along those lines would be to make the hidden nationality promotion not display. That way no one can look at a unit and tell if it's hidden nationality or actually a barbarian. It shouldn't affect the controller much because you'll still have the bright orange "declare nationality" button telling you that the unit is HN.

 

[WarKirby]

No one should be able to be at peace with them, though, as flavorful as it may seem, because then that defeats the purpose of using them to make hidden nationality make sense.

I really disagree here. The Clan of Embers are orcs, plain and simple. They should always be at peace with the Orcs. It's the most fundamental aspect of their nature.

Of course, for anyone else who is not a living avatar of Bhall, I agree.

 

[Earthling]

I'm rather unsure about this idea - even composing that first sentence correctly was a little straining. It sounds really cool at first glance, but then I have to wonder what's really being added. First, I think this probably should be strongly tied in with Esus, but not exclusive to it (cause again, then you no it's just the player with no other religion). Some of my considerations:

About Multiplayer- I don't think any changes to HN including this would really be sufficient for multiplayer. Unless players were playing a "no settlers" variant or something with swaths of empty space that could be snuck across, by the mid-game it's still obvious that units are coming from a particular neighbour. Plus the fact that human players can be pretty smart at killing units wondering into their territory. So, the only way to add real "uncertainty" would be to have these raiders spawn in numbers, numbers, numbers, like stacks of 10 raiders at a time, and given random levels of experience (so again you don't just know - oh, the 0 xp ones are barbs).

Another possibility would be to have war on the map increase the chances of greedy raiders spawning, and perhaps more likelihood towards targeting civs already at war (what an opportunistic human would do). But the problem to all of this is finding a place for them to spawn - it seems kinda unacceptable to allow them to spawn inside a players' territory, unless they only spawn in Esus lands, which just puts a target on the Esus player(s) again. In short I don't think humans could be fooled easily unless these barbs become massively more powerful. Though perhaps spawning a bunch of barbs could be a one-time thing from the Svart spell to make it more useful - the main problem really is with the Svarts after all I'd think.

But, the one thing that does have potential is raiders pirate ships - these could be very feasible, and I could even see them landing units to pillage as well, and with ships it's harder to tell which player they could have come from, might be someone all the way across the map.

As far as single player goes, I don't think this idea has as much use though unless there's something more to it, be it a new upgrade to Esus, barb heroes, or something else. There's no reason not to have another barbarian faction but this one seems like it would be the runt - no cities to capture, no raw power like the demons have. Or at least I don't want to turn this into a war where the AV civs spawn demons and the Esus civs spawn equally powerful raiders, that just doesn't seem right.

 

[far_wanderer]

I really disagree here. The Clan of Embers are orcs, plain and simple. They should always be at peace with the Orcs. It's the most fundamental aspect of their nature.

Of course, for anyone else who is not a living avatar of Bhall, I agree.

Now I'm confused. You're proposing an additional barbarian faction, right? One that exists to represent all the bandits, raiders, etc. that are not orcs. I was saying that that faction shouldn't be at peace with anyone. The orcish savages should definitely stay at peace with the Clan.

 

[WarKirby]

Now I'm confused. You're proposing an additional barbarian faction, right? One that exists to represent all the bandits, raiders, etc. that are not orcs. I was saying that that faction shouldn't be at peace with anyone. The orcish savages should definitely stay at peace with the Clan.

Ah, sorry, it's my fault. I read this:

I heartily approve of this idea, both on its own merits and because I see it leading to more of a focus for the savages. No one should be able to be at peace with them, though, as flavorful as it may seem, because then that defeats the purpose of using them to make hidden nationality make sense.

And got the impression that you meant no one should be at peace with the savages.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I like the idea. As long as we're on the topic of barbarian units though:

Infernal and Sheaim should be at peace with Agares' demons, in the same way Clan is at peace with Savages. The clan would not be at peace with these demons. These demons should include the four horsemen. It makes so sense to have the Clan be at peace with the horsemen, but have the horsemen attacking the Sheaim.

Clan should remain at peace with the Savages.

Nobody should be at peace with animals or raiders.

 

[WarKirby]

Why would it make sense for the Clan to be at peace with the four horsemen? I don't see the sense in that.

The mechanics for being at peace with Agares are already established, I'm not saying there should be any changes to that.

I disagree about peace with animals, the feral trait already exists. Doviello and archos start at peace with them. I'm kind of wondering if ljosalfar should be too.

I'd also disagree that nobody should be at peace with the raiders. The main issue here, is that the current threee factions don't cover anywhere near the amount of possibilities there are for an HN unit. That's the problem I'm trying to solve, by proposing a new faction which is fairly generic, and could contain people of all races. I don't think that being at peace with raiders would negare the usefulness of it fore HN purposes/. Hidden nationality is merely a disguis. As it is now, you appear as a savage when HN, but you can still attack the orcs.

The point here is believability. If you have the raider flag, and you look like a raider, you may very well be a raider. But you're not actually a raider, it's about deception. Your unit just pretends to be, to fit in. If he wants to throw off that disguise and attack a faction which is at peace with raiders, I think he should be able to.

With something like a barbarian faction, a concrete state of "peace" is a bit of a silly concept. Rather, you have the respect of most of that faction,, and they generally won't attack you. But I still wouldn#t truust orcs, raiders, or demons, as far as I could throw the,m. So a civ being at peace with raiders, could still be attacked by HN units pretending to be raiders, conveys that feeling of mistrust.

 

[Darksaber1]

Infernal and Sheaim should be at peace with Agares' demons, in the same way Clan is at peace with Savages. The clan would not be at peace with these demons. These demons should include the four horsemen. It makes so sense to have the Clan be at peace with the horsemen, but have the horsemen attacking the Sheaim.
.

I'm not sure, but I think that should have been coupled with a. Also, I think he missed MUCH between so and sense.

 

[far_wanderer]

Why would it make sense for the Clan to be at peace with the four horsemen? I don't see the sense in that.

The mechanics for being at peace with Agares are already established, I'm not saying there should be any changes to that.

I disagree about peace with animals, the feral trait already exists. Doviello and archos start at peace with them. I'm kind of wondering if ljosalfar should be too.

I'd also disagree that nobody should be at peace with the raiders. The main issue here, is that the current threee factions don't cover anywhere near the amount of possibilities there are for an HN unit. That's the problem I'm trying to solve, by proposing a new faction which is fairly generic, and could contain people of all races. I don't think that being at peace with raiders would negare the usefulness of it fore HN purposes/. Hidden nationality is merely a disguis. As it is now, you appear as a savage when HN, but you can still attack the orcs.

The point here is believability. If you have the raider flag, and you look like a raider, you may very well be a raider. But you're not actually a raider, it's about deception. Your unit just pretends to be, to fit in. If he wants to throw off that disguise and attack a faction which is at peace with raiders, I think he should be able to.

With something like a barbarian faction, a concrete state of "peace" is a bit of a silly concept. Rather, you have the respect of most of that faction,, and they generally won't attack you. But I still wouldn#t truust orcs, raiders, or demons, as far as I could throw the,m. So a civ being at peace with raiders, could still be attacked by HN units pretending to be raiders, conveys that feeling of mistrust.

Ah, but the problem is that that works in reverse as well. If you're supposed to be at peace with the Raiders and your move into one of their stacks, and it just happens to be secretly a HN enemy, you get combat even if neither of of you wanted it. The concept of Hidden Nationality just doesn't work with a faction you can be at peace with.
If you want the Raiders to be untrustworthy like that, it also doesn't make sense to make them be at peace with anyone, because no one would trust them enough to make peace. I know if I had a faction that routinely turned out to be traitors and backstabbed me, I certainly wouldn't let them wander freely through my territory. But that's what happens with peace.
Raider peace will be further disadvantaged by the fact that you won't get any warnings enemy units have been sighted. You'll be left with the prospect of manually checking every unit in your territory for combat odds every turn. And even that process isn't always entirely reliable.
Basically what I'm saying is that, if your goal is to make a faction that harbors enemy spies, why would any want peace with them? Would Rhoanna sit down at a bargaining table and say "I know the last four negotiators were assassins, but I've got a good feeling about you, so we'll let you wander through our territory whenever you want."

 

[Honor]

How about making the HN promotion randomly change the appearance of the unit as well? I mean on top of the raider spawning and whatnot. If the raider units WK suggested are spawned with random strength and xp levels (that have nothing to do with their appearance), this could obscure the whole ordeal enough to make it really hard to tell the human HN units from AI HN units.

Oh, and one more thing: HN promotion should be reprogrammed to hide any race- or hero- specific promotions as well in my opinion.

 

[WarKirby]

If the raider units WK suggested are spawned with random strength and xp levels (that have nothing to do with their appearance), this could obscure the whole ordeal enough to make it really hard to tell the human HN units from AI HN units.

This isn't what I was saying.

After spawning, a unit would be automatically assigned an artstyle. An artystyle won't make a warrior be anything other than a warrior. What it does, is changes whether it looks like a Bannor warrior, or an Orcish warrior, or a Dwarven Warrior. Or a lanun warrior.

Artstyles are what allows the same unit to look different for different civs.
Of course, if a non-human artstyle is chosen, the racial promo would have to be applied too.

 

[Honor]

I know, I know it isn't what you were saying. It is a new suggestion by me (TM).

(I just referred to your raiders idea and suggested a different approach to the way units are spawned, to make the process much more random and unpredictable. This way, even a human hero unit with 12 strength and an appearance of a club-wielding warrior would not be identified as the human hero unit that it is.)

 

[WarKirby]

I see. I'm not a fan of that personally. As an artist, incorrect visual representations really irk me. the pithy little ira being str32 is bad enough.

 

[Duruk]

What if the raiders were friendly with everyone, but were played by a really aggressive/mean AI who would attack its "allies" since all its units were HN? Then, these units could spawn anywhere (which kind of makes sense, because there's no one to raid or steal from in the wilderness) In (my) ideal, the likelihood of a raider unit spawning in your empire would be directly related to your cities crime rates and unhappiness (it's been i while since I've been able to play, so I don't remember if cities still have crime rates or not). This opens all sorts of new options; police force and vigilante events, making crime rates matter more, peasant revolts(yes!), etc.