Barbarians and the Greek World Scenario

[acruther]

Not sure if many here have played this scenario. It's kind of fun until about 160 AD or so. Then all heck breaks loose. Stacks of 8-10 barbarian mounted archers, axeman, or swordsman appear randomly within your territory intermittently and do their best to raze your cities. For me, I usually heavily defend my border cities, but this little magic tactic pretty much ruins that plan.

Has anyone else seen this? Any strats other than walls everywhere and 4-5 of your best units to defend in every city (holy maintenance costs Batman)? How can you wage war against your neighbors under these conditions??? Not to mention constantly having to rebuild improvements...

 

[Breunor]

Not sure if many here have played this scenario. It's kind of fun until about 160 AD or so. Then all heck breaks loose. Stacks of 8-10 barbarian mounted archers, axeman, or swordsman appear randomly within your territory intermittently and do their best to raze your cities. For me, I usually heavily defend my border cities, but this little magic tactic pretty much ruins that plan.

Has anyone else seen this? Any strats other than walls everywhere and 4-5 of your best units to defend in every city (holy maintenance costs Batman)? How can you wage war against your neighbors under these conditions??? Not to mention constantly having to rebuild improvements...

I haven't played the scenario, but what you are describing is historic. A major influence on Rome's problem was the unification of the German tribes in confederations starting in the late second century, the emergence of Alemanni, Goths, etc. Note that by the mid third century Rome had been essentially completely isolated, holding little more than Italy -- until Claudius II and Aurelian restored it. The key were victories over the Goths and Alemanni.

So it seems like the scenario is doing what it should. Indeed, in real life a big issue for the Romans is that they had to increase their army size to handle the new threats which put a financial strain on the government. Even worse, it created larger field armies under independent commanders and the third century is full of civil wars. But the Germans were tough!


So, it should get even worse. Indeed, in the early third century, you may find an even bigger problem -- Persia! Persia overthrew their Parthian masters in the 220's and was a powerful enemy for about 400 years.

Being a Roman emperor in the third century was not fun .....

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[snipafist]

I've played the scenario and feel the same as you. It was a lot of fun up until the huge barb stacks started appearing randomly. In the scenario, barbs are tough enough with so much unexplored land to multiply in - appearing out of nowhere just makes it much less fun. I'm fine with huge barb stacks on my borders (makes the game challenging and fun), but magically appearing mobs are incredibly un-fun.

 

[acruther]

I've played the scenario and feel the same as you. It was a lot of fun up until the huge barb stacks started appearing randomly. In the scenario, barbs are tough enough with so much unexplored land to multiply in - appearing out of nowhere just makes it much less fun. I'm fine with huge barb stacks on my borders (makes the game challenging and fun), but magically appearing mobs are incredibly un-fun.

I agree, and I wish I could turn them off. Again, border attacks are fine. It's the 8 stack of modern units (well modern for the timeframe of the scenario) right next to your core cities that drive me bonkers. Basically ends your ability to do anything but fight off the hordes and repair the unending damage.

I do realize the historical truth of the barbarian hordes, but they did come from somewhere. Plus, there are barbarian civs in the scenario. They should be enough. If you vanquish them, well then they should stop being a thorn.

 

[Breunor]

Acruther,

Its the difference between history and game. Even Rome couldn't really conquer the barbarians. Probus went into Germany and beat them up badly, but he recognized that the Roman heavy infantry could never dominate in the vast forests of Germany.

For a realistic CIV, having barbarians just show up without cities is realistic. That's the way the Romans felt. The Germans didn't have cities (again, the Persian menace to the East is different). The Germans had people all over the place. They would become dangerous when they banded together under a leader. Remember, gErmany at the time was forests all over.

The Romans even speculated that German women had to reproduce quickly! Of course, this wasn't the case. What happenend was a German leader could simply get others to join even after a defeat.

In real life, if the Romans or anyone came after them, with few exceptions like Probus, they simply melted into the vast forests, to come out later. The most realistic representation of the Roman situatiion in the late second and third century is hoirdes of barbarians showing up from the forests. The Romans fortifed the Danube and the Rhine to (try to) stop them.


However, if it makes the game not fun, then it isn't a good game.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[snipafist]

While I completely agree with your historical assessment, I'd rather have 10+ barbs showing up in a big stack of doom on the outskirts of my empire on their way in (still quite terrifying, let me assure you) than 5+ barbs appearing out of nowhere to attack one of my inner cities, which will then usually need to be recaptured. I really like the menace of the barbarians in the earlier 2/3 of that scenario (quite beefy barbs, and they are everywhere), and I think ramping that up would work just fine and would remain quite fun. The teleporting barb stacks just ruin the fun of the end game though because they're impossible to guard against or plan for, and make the last third of the game about hunkering down and waiting for some random city to fall rather than trying to deal with encroaching barbarians while still being able to crush your other foes.

 

[Nestorius]

Historically, barbarians did just appear to sack inner core cities of the late Roman Empire. These were the Visogoths who were settled within the borders of the Empire years before. Occasionally they'd rebel and take over a city. The Toulousan Gothic kingdom in southern France is a fine example of that. They weren't from Germany, either, they came from the Ukraine area before the Huns forced them to migrate and serve in the Roman army.

 

[EPL]

I also have to agree with acruther. I've played this 4 times now and have yet to finish it due to the 'barbs'.

It may be lifelike but it isn't fun. The first game I played I had a stack of 8 units appear next to Roma and raze it, with most of my troops on the borders there was nothing I could do to prevent it, or to stop them advancing to the next city.

As soon as I have the time I intent to modify this (if possible) but that may be a while...

 

[Breunor]

Hmm,

I haven't played the scenario, but I agree that even historically, barbarians should really only be at the edges. Romans based expansion on defensible terrain.

I thought barbs can't spawn except in fog of war -- is this changed in this mod? If that rule is still on, you may need a Roman method, which is not to have any fog of war areas inside your borders? There isn't any questions that the Germans arrived anywhere fromt he forsest, but they couldn't jsut pop up next to Rome.

Later, the Romans recongnized they couldn't police the whole border, and had border guards (Limitanei) to slow down attackers and had the raw legions in central areas.

Would keeping some unit to eliminate fog in the established regions help in game terms?

Breunor

 

[snipafist]

It's not that a single barb or two spawns within your borders, it's that periodically a huge stack spawns right next to a city, seemingly chosen at random (which has guards inside so they've obviously got LOS). At first I thought it was a glitch, but it seems like it was deliberately programmed into the scenario.

 

[Nestorius]

On Prince level playing the Romans, three or four Pratorians on each city solves the problem, although expansion is a little difficult. You have money in the late stage of the game, why not spend it on units?

 

[roalan]

I just go to the builder and errase them when horads appear and then go back to the game. They will return but not for a few turns.

 

[Dreef]

for a little more realism would you prefer if your existing units simply rebeled and started attacking your core cities? That would more closely model the political instability and civil wars associated with the era IMO. Magically appearing barbs dosen't sound like fun but the western Roman empire didn't exactly make it out alive either.

The only solution would be blanketing all of your "safe" areas in units. I would assume that a barb stack couldn't spawn on top of an existing unit. Not sure what that would do to your finances but you would save all your cities and improvments that way.

 

[acruther]

The only solution would be blanketing all of your "safe" areas in units. I would assume that a barb stack couldn't spawn on top of an existing unit. Not sure what that would do to your finances but you would save all your cities and improvments that way.

You can't stick a unit in every square. That would take forever. You could probably stick 4-5 in every city, but your improvements are still going to get nailed. Basically you're not going to do any more expanding/fighting your rivals much after the birth of Christ...

 

[minke]

So how do you win this scenario? Pardon me for asking, as I have yet to try it. Is there no victory condition?

 

[Mr. Pointless]

Historicly the Romans was under threat from barbs and also controlling the large of an empire at that time.

You shouldn't complain about the barbs as if you can conquer the barbs and control the empire you deserve an applause.

Just think the barbs are a challange.

 

[EPL]

Unfortunatly the barbs are more than a challange, they bring a halt to expansion. The goals are to cover (I think, going from memory here) 30% of the map (next to impossible in the short time frame available) or eliminate all your rivals.

The best I've managed so far is to conquer 4 civs before tha barbs start appearing and bring other wars to a halt.

I don't mind a challenge but 4 swordmen and 4 axemen appearing from nowhere, right next to key cities every few turns + barbs coming in from the dark is enough to stop any other wars from being possible (at best!). Raging barbs is the default here and there is a lot of unseen terrain for them to spawn in.

The last game I completed 2 of the other civs were wiped out by the barbs.