barbarians nightmare: new patch problem or marathon problem?

[atomant]

Playing a huge earth map marathon, I must have wiped out over 100 barbs. It is taking the fun out of it. If they would only build cities and settle down and attack every 20-50 turns it might be more interesting.

They popup about every 1-2 turns in the same area each time and come for me only. My AI friends must have secret treaties with them or something. I'll watch them in debug mode go right past other cities/units and head right for my cities or units.

 

[Flambeaux]

I noticed the "problem" in a Deul-sized map Hotseat game I started under 1.09.

The other player had, on my advice, stationed units all around his island/continent start and was having no problems. I saw all of three barbarian units until the 1.52 patch. I've had to radically adapt my strategy, in media res, to stay in the game. It made what was going to be a very easy builder game into quite a challenge.

In a sense the barbs are handicapping me effectively. My friend is a long time civ player, but brand new to CIV. I've been playing a lot since it came out as well as reading the strategy suggestions in the forum.

Overall, I think it's a great change. It has improved my gameplay experience. I can now have a reasonably challeging game on Settler (my favorite difficulty level). And I have to expand sensibly, rather than as a gamer with huge advantages.

 

[JerichoHill]

A problem with Barbarians?

Where are those who wanted Civ to be more realistic! Firaxis listens.

In Northern Europe, cities were built on coasts because of barbarians inland. Now, in Civ, we have even greater emphasis on replicating this historical trend.

I noticed the increase in barbarians playing Epic/Prince. They weren't anything a flexible player couldn't handle. You can't always have a science/culture start. You can't always win the game the way you are used to winning it. And you shouldn't be able to win every time.

For me, the point of C4 is not to WIN the game, but to play your best game possible.

Maybe that's why I really enjoy the Incas/Russians in the 1000AD scenario.

 

[Roxinante]

My complaint about barbs has been that they've reduced the tweakability from III. Now you have only the option of barb/no barb, and only in the Custom menu. I liked in III where you could decide how barb happy the computer would get, a range from A Couple of Guys Who Dont Bathe Often Enough to Oh GOD They're Everywhere and Black Sabbath's "The Mob Rules" Is Playing In The Background.

 

[TLHeart]

Those who survive the test of time, adapt to the changing environment.

For me Civ is about building and growing a civilization. A have noticed the change in barb activity, a much needed improvement, which slows down the founding of new cities, which in turn increases barb activity. Now one has to explore and station troops, not just send out settlers.

Thank you Firaxis for listening and improving the game.

 

[Flak]

I've found myself abandoning games because it's so bad. I just keep having to defend against barbarians and slowly watch the AI slip away into an unsurmoutable. It's really too bad. Pre-1.52, I finished every game I started just because they were so engrossing. Now I can't even properly develop a key resourcee. I'm always having to fight barbarians. It's also really frustrating when on crowded maps, I see the barbarians pass by and over AI scouts, mines, and farmland just to get to my resources. Not as much fun. Worse, I haven't really clearly found the spots in the code where I can mod this back to some sort of playability. I imagine this will really turn a lot of new players off of the game.

 

[PDXJoe]

I was surprised at first about the sheer number and difficulty of barbs. It took me a couple of games before I realized that to play the map and speed I wanted to, I'd have to develop a new strategy, takign into account these new ferocious barbs..

I haven't noticed much diff between barbs in 1.09 and 1.52...

 

[aronk76]

I am currently playing a custom game on Noble and notice this same problem. Before I could even get a 2nd city built Barbs were just popping up everywhere. I noticed that when other civs came around they wouldn't attack them but the Barbs would come and pillage my cities. I finally found their city and destriyed it and even though they have no land control on the continent I am on they just keep popping up in the middle of my area. When starting the game it takes so much just to fend off the barbs taht now I am way behind all the other civs in tech, culture, and size. This definitely needs to be fixed in the next patch. Which is hopefully sooner than later.

 

[conehead234]

I find that it makes it more fun at the beginning of the game. Besides, the promotions are always useful later.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I find that it makes it more fun at the beginning of the game. Besides, the promotions are always useful later.

Absolutely, first requirement in marathon lvl is to build an army , and then go out an conquer all those Barby towns they've kindly built for you

 

[Flak]

I find that it makes it more fun at the beginning of the game. Besides, the promotions are always useful later.

I agree that it makes the early game more intense, but it's very frustrating to watch the barb units pass through AI territory going by an adjacent scout, then a farmed rice tile, then an undeveloped hill, just to get to your mined copper source. The promotions are nice, especially since I'm a builder and don't normally get to many opportunities to promote units. But these promotions are useless if I'm spending all my resources fighting barbarian and watching the AI civs expand seemingly without a care in the world. Not much fun there.

I was surprised at first about the sheer number and difficulty of barbs. It took me a couple of games before I realized that to play the map and speed I wanted to, I'd have to develop a new strategy, takign into account these new ferocious barbs..

Well I've tried a few different maps. Right now my strategy is:

1. Fend off babarians and settle for just two, perhaps three cities as the AI goes on a land grab.

2. Watch in frustration as Barbs pour through AI lands to attack my often costly defended resources while passing by AI workers, AI scouts, and undefended developed AI resources.

3. Watch myself slip behind in tech and economy.

4. Abandon game far too early on as it is obvious that nothing good will come of the effort anyway.


This strategy has worked well for me so far. But I'm just about ready to stop playing the game and maybe take a break from it for a while. The fun has been programmed out of it.

 

[Scythe89]

Try playing on lower difficulties then you're used to, then work yourself back up again.

 

[Flak]

That was my first game on Warlord after seeing this play out the same way a couple of times on Noble!

 

[Charles 22]

I've found myself abandoning games because it's so bad. I just keep having to defend against barbarians and slowly watch the AI slip away into an unsurmoutable. It's really too bad. Pre-1.52, I finished every game I started just because they were so engrossing. Now I can't even properly develop a key resourcee. I'm always having to fight barbarians. It's also really frustrating when on crowded maps, I see the barbarians pass by and over AI scouts, mines, and farmland just to get to my resources. Not as much fun. Worse, I haven't really clearly found the spots in the code where I can mod this back to some sort of playability. I imagine this will really turn a lot of new players off of the game.

If what some of you are thinking, that barbs ignore the AI civs, then how do you explain that I saw an AI scout, on at least one occasion with only one man left (playing the version where there would be two scouts at full strength)? My first guess is that he lost it to animals instead, but technically the game shows the animals to be barbs too.

I have had games where I gave up due to the barbs, but they have been far and few between, most likely because I'm making adequate adjustments. I can't say I've seen human barbs bypassing other civs to go 3 or more hexes to get to me, But I can't say I've seen them attack AI units either. One thing we might want to consider though, is that the barbs may have knowledge of how effective our military is, and therefore if weak will attack us in preference to a strong neighbor. As well, I know the AI civs don't ignore the barbs, because I've seen numbers of times where they've destroyed their cities. That just leaves whether or not the barbs human units will attack the AI civs. I'm guessing they do, but it don't look like it if we have a puny military.

I have no idea how they program it, but say you have 6 resources hooked up, with 3 cities, and you have 6 military units. Your neighbor might have 4 cities and only 3 resources hooked up (I'm not including improvements here) but have 10 military units. Which would you attack?

 

[Flak]

I have no idea how they program it, but say you have 6 resources hooked up, with 3 cities, and you have 6 military units. Your neighbor might have 4 cities and only 3 resources hooked up (I'm not including improvements here) but have 10 military units. Which would you attack?

Maybe I'm somewhat at fault here for thinking too much in Civ III terms. But here's what my gut tells me the barbarians should do:

1. If they get on any improved tile whatsoever, automatically pillage it.
2. Only exception to auto-pillaging is beelining to the nearest developed resource, let's say reachable in 2 turns or less, to pillage that first.
3. Attack any nearest non/weak-combat unit automatically i.e. scouts, settlers, workers.
   
4. Search for weak cities, pillaging all along the way to eventually attacking them.
5. Do all of the above without respect to whether it's the human player or an AI civ.

If the game will do this, I can play without frustration. I admit I would watch with somewhat perverse pleasure as some of these hyper-spawed-land-grab cities that the AI lays down around my borders would fall one after the other to the increased numbers of barbarians. Heck, I might even play with Raging Barbarians turned on again and put up with the hassle, just to see the AI suffer some pain for expanding to quickly. I have no problem with having to fight lots of barbarians early in the game. It's even fun... as long as the AI players have the same hassle I do.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I agree that it makes the early game more intense, but it's very frustrating to watch the barb units pass through AI territory going by an adjacent scout, then a farmed rice tile, then an undeveloped hill, just to get to your mined copper source. The promotions are nice, especially since I'm a builder and don't normally get to many opportunities to promote units. But these promotions are useless if I'm spending all my resources fighting barbarian and watching the AI civs expand seemingly without a care in the world. Not much fun there.



Well I've tried a few different maps. Right now my strategy is:

1. Fend off babarians and settle for just two, perhaps three cities as the AI goes on a land grab.

2. Watch in frustration as Barbs pour through AI lands to attack my often costly defended resources while passing by AI workers, AI scouts, and undefended developed AI resources.

3. Watch myself slip behind in tech and economy.

4. Abandon game far too early on as it is obvious that nothing good will come of the effort anyway.


This strategy has worked well for me so far. But I'm just about ready to stop playing the game and maybe take a break from it for a while. The fun has been programmed out of it.

Hmm..sorry for this, but I think you're basically playing the wrong way..depending on size of map, lack of early city building = much more "empty fog of war tiles" and therefore = more barbs..2 or 3 cities isnt enough..you get 4 for free cost and around 6 - 8 wont do any damage to your economy..this will reduce land area for barbs to spawn in.

1st requirement is find copper..connect it and build at least 1 axeman for every city you have..and when you get the "barb sighted message , go out of city to meet them, but position your guy (archer , axeman , warrior whatever) in an advantageous defencive square , and barb will attack you there..you'll win around 90+% of the time.

If early on you get a barby influx; last game as Rome (Noble/ Marathon / Huge) I decided to build very early stonehenge with only 3 cities and 4 warriors ..I had none in cities, all on borders in hill / forests the famous four warriors defeated 8 barby archers ..its all a matter of placement..in fact Ive never even had a square pillaged by a barby in all my games.

And yes the barbs do ignore AI scouts to attack your cities and resources..but many a time (with an early open borders) they've ignored MY scouts to get at the AI cities and resources..so what comes around......

Anyways , rant over, hope its of some possible help

DrewBledsoe.

 

[Charles 22]

Maybe I'm somewhat at fault here for thinking too much in Civ III terms. But here's what my gut tells me the barbarians should do:

1. If they get on any improved tile whatsoever, automatically pillage it.
2. Only exception to auto-pillaging is beelining to the nearest developed resource, let's say reachable in 2 turns or less, to pillage that first.
3. Attack any nearest non/weak-combat unit automatically i.e. scouts, settlers, workers.
   
4. Search for weak cities, pillaging all along the way to eventually attacking them.
5. Do all of the above without respect to whether it's the human player or an AI civ.

If the game will do this, I can play without frustration. I admit I would watch with somewhat perverse pleasure as some of these hyper-spawed-land-grab cities that the AI lays down around my borders would fall one after the other to the increased numbers of barbarians. Heck, I might even play with Raging Barbarians turned on again and put up with the hassle, just to see the AI suffer some pain for expanding to quickly. I have no problem with having to fight lots of barbarians early in the game. It's even fun... as long as the AI players have the same hassle I do.

I can't agree more. If barbs work anything like some of the more desperate of us are alluding to, then this would make for the way the AI cheats, but doesn't cheat. You know, the AI civs don't cheat, it's just those awful barbs that go after the human player, and what has that to do with your opponents cheating?

 

[whitecrow]

How are barbarians going to have more advanced units than you? That's not very realistic.

Horse-riding tribes actually made huge impact on old world's history because they adopted Horseback Riding and later stirrup much earlier than "civilized" folks. They also used iron weapons while some civilizations were still struggling with bronze working.

Almost every civilizations I can remember (including Egypt, Greece and Rome) has bad experience of being conquered by 'barbarians'. Tribes with superier weapons have sacked their countries and even capitals.

New horde of barbarians are quite fun and I like the change.

 

[Flak]

Hmm..sorry for this, but I think you're basically playing the wrong way..depending on size of map, lack of early city building = much more "empty fog of war tiles" and therefore = more barbs..2 or 3 cities isnt enough..you get 4 for free cost and around 6 - 8 wont do any damage to your economy..this will reduce land area for barbs to spawn in.

No longer. With 1.52, your costs start up with the second city. Really too bad. Everything else is basic anti-barbarian strategy which I usually implement well. I don't have a problem defending myself against barbarians and even rather enjoy the extra challenge. In a third of my games before 1.52 I have Raging Barbarians set. It's just that now I'm seeing them popup in fog-of-war two or three cultural borders over, bypassing size 1 cities defended by a lone archer that my AI neighbor has sprawled into some god-awful spot for land-grab purposes, and head right on over to my mines which have a fortified axeman on them and perhaps a chariot/horseunit in sentry (sentry is worthless btw). And I have to keep pumping out more units to protect my workers and exanding resources while my neighbors merrily sprawl across in a manner which, even in 1.09, would bankrupt half my units right out of existence before 0 A.D.

If anybody from Firaxis is reading this, please do me favor. Have one of your testers play an 18 civ game on a huge Pangea, and observe the barbarian behavior. The level doesn't matter as I've seen this on Diety and Warlord. Ask them if they would consider this game 'fun'.

 

[tinribs]

Personally I find the sudden increase in Barbarians to be annoying. I know they can be turned off but that smacks of "cheating" (for want of a better word) and I just don't like doing it. I would like there to be a scale of Barbarism as there has been in earlier versions - for example in my last game, Huge, Terra, Warlord level. I had seven (count them!) barb units (including a swordsman and two axemen) around my second city and this was before I'd even found a copper resource (I had the tech but no Copper within view of my scouts (who had been going since day one)). I had just had time to stick two archers in each city but had no way of attacking the barbs (everytime I attempted to attack an axeman/swordsman with an archer I lost the archer).

How can this be defined as this fun?

Tinribs