Barbarians (Trait) who are really Barbaric

[xienwolf]

I was thinking about this as I was going to sleep last night, and I realized that the Barbarian trait could be made FAR more enjoyable than it is at present, while making use of a game function which current Fall from Heaven doesn't touch, but fits the flavor SO WELL.


The unused mechanic is a simple tag on each unit <bAlwaysHostile>, by setting this flag, the unit is allowed to attack any other unit that it desires without Declaration of War.

So, the entire concept of a Barbaric Race is that they are struggling to come out of their natural inclination and START to be civilized. So why are the so Civil right from the start? I think that all of the Tier 1 & most of the Tier 2 units (plus maybe the Berserker or any other appropriate T3/4 units) need this flag set, so that at any moment they CAN attack other people.

This leaves other players/AI with a difficult choice: Do I declare war on this guy and treat him like any other Barbarian, or do I ignore this one minor case and inform him that I hope it doesn't happen again?

This also should allow the Barbarian player to fight with other Barbarians, which I haven't decided if that is a good or a bad thing. I mean, it DOES make sense that two Barbarian tribes would have frequent small squabbles, but no outright war.

But overall, it is mostly that this mechanic ought to be FUN to use

 

[Mailbox]

Would the AI realize that the player was doing it? Or would it just let all of its units be attacked and not declare war (I know it would be able to attack, but it would need some sort of way to realize the player is being aggressive).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think the AI could handle it.

This seems more sneaky than barbarian, and it would probably get a lot of barb trait units killed. I still prefer adding a very common random event (not necessarily using the random event system, as you really don't need to make a decision or see a popup that often) where two barb or barb-trait units get into a brawl and fight each other, possibly killing one or both, but more likly injuring them slightly and giving them a little xp.

 

[xienwolf]

How on earth is it sneaky? It TELLS YOU who killed your units. It isn't sneaky at all, it is just bullying/rude.

And the AI racks up negative diplomacy modifiers with you the more units of theirs you kill.

 

[Nefelia]

You'd likely have to limit the 'free' attacks outside of rival cultural boundaries. Would it be possible to make these units appear as barbarian units in the wilderness, where they would be free to attak at will, but lose the 'barbarian ability' once entering a cultural border?

 

[Mewtarthio]

I like this idea. It certainly doesn't make much sense for civilized nations and the Doviello to casually sign Open Borders treaties and expect there to be no problems.

 

[xienwolf]

No, this isn't HN, they NEVER appear like a barbarian. They ALWAYS show who owns them. They are simply allowed to attack anyone without having to declare war.

I'm sure you could code it to not allow them to attack in rivals territory, but that would require going into Python or SDK and playing with more things. What I am proposing is just to use the programming that is already there, and simply not being utilized.

The tag is there for Privateers in basic Civ. That is currently the only unit in the entire Civ franchise which I am aware of using it (including the 3 mods I am familiar with).

 

[WhitewolfIV]

I think this is a good idea, it also gives players an interesting choice too, should I build a lot of tier 1-2 units and do sneak attacks or should I just go for the strong level 3-4 units and go to war.

And like Xienwolf said maybe when the unit kills a unit of a different civilization it could give a dip penalty so that the AI could handle it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't see this as helping the barb trait civs much though. It will make them hated and destroy them, plus they will lose their units in battle when not at war. Their enemies may be able to handle it, but the Clan and Doviello won't be able to.

 

[Mailbox]

It could be interesting if barbarian leaders gave a promotion that made all their units outside of their borders appear as barbarians. Of course, the promotion would have to appear hidden or give it to all barbarians (and there would need to be human barbarians for the Doviello).

 

[Nefelia]

I don't see this as helping the barb trait civs much though. It will make them hated and destroy them, plus they will lose their units in battle when not at war. Their enemies may be able to handle it, but the Clan and Doviello won't be able to.

Take away the diplomatic penalties from the attacks and it should be no problem. Assuming, of course, that the trait only allows for 'free' attacks outside of cultural borders.

The trait would allow civs with the Barbarian trait to patrol their surrounding wilderness and eliminate rival explorers/gain xp. Fun, but not game breaking.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i like this idea very much and dont think it would be an issue for AI (why else would firaxis have used that tag?). just have negative diplomacy points have a cap so that a civ wont only declare war on the barbarian trait civs only because of the free attacks, there would have to be more modifyers liek religion and trade etc. it would just make war more likely for them.

 

[Sarisin]

No, this isn't HN, they NEVER appear like a barbarian. They ALWAYS show who owns them. They are simply allowed to attack anyone without having to declare war.

Are you sure about that, xienwolf?

When the Svartalfar used their World Spell which created many HN units, I'm pretty sure they came over my border with that black barb flag. I don't think it was possible that all of them turned barb because of an Enraged promotion.

But, yes, even though they had the look of a barb unit, it was fairly easy to guess they were Svartalfar HN units.

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, when anyone uses HN (which is in the game) they will appear to be a Barbarian.

I am talking about a completely different aspect, which FfH doesn't use, but has the code for. This one lets you attack all you want, but still shows your nationality.

I just loaded it up to try it out, the overall results are:
1. Your nationality is always shown, and it is announced like normal who the unit belongs to when you kill someone.

2. Open borders are not required to enter another player's territory.

3. You can move onto an empty enemy city, but cannot capture it.

4. You accumulate War Weariness with the other Civilizations for killing their people



The AI understood it pretty darn well, and overall it accomplished everything that HN was meant to accomplish for Animals IMO, but still allows you to spawn/capture units, and has some repercussions for your attacks, instead of just allowing you to harass your rivals unchecked.

 

[Seven05]

It'd work better if the always hostile bit were attached to a promotion or if all units from those civs were flagged as always hostile until they became 'civilized' when they'd get a promotion that removes it. After all, just because you can build T3/T4 units doesn't mean you have a propper civilization going.

It would be a small change in the SDK to not allow units to enter rival territory that had this (and only this) set and that would be a better option overall, in my opinion.

 

[Sarisin]

Yes, when anyone uses HN (which is in the game) they will appear to be a Barbarian.

I am talking about a completely different aspect, which FfH doesn't use, but has the code for. This one lets you attack all you want, but still shows your nationality.

I just loaded it up to try it out, the overall results are:
1. Your nationality is always shown, and it is announced like normal who the unit belongs to when you kill someone.

2. Open borders are not required to enter another player's territory.

3. You can move onto an empty enemy city, but cannot capture it.

4. You accumulate War Weariness with the other Civilizations for killing their people



The AI understood it pretty darn well, and overall it accomplished everything that HN was meant to accomplish for Animals IMO, but still allows you to spawn/capture units, and has some repercussions for your attacks, instead of just allowing you to harass your rivals unchecked.

xienwolf, I remember bringing up some problems with HN several versions ago.

For example, I said that the AI knew who the HN unit belonged to. The reason I gave for this is that I saw my relations drop with civs I had my HN units (mostly Shadows then) in doing some dirty work. Additionally, I never declared war on the civ, and my HN units were incapable of razing cities. However, in the diplo box, relations were affected by "You razed one of our cities" and "This war spoils our relationship." The barbs came in and razed (yes, in that version they razed instead capturing every city) the cities, not me or my HN units.

So, they must have known the HN units were mine somehow.

Anyway, I have to say your plans thwart my early strategy of rushing the Pact of Nilhorn to get the Stooges and send them off to nearby civs to kill and pillage.

 

[xienwolf]

I don't see why they would, I am not suggesting that we lose HN, I just would like to allow any Leader with the barbarian trait to have some/most of his lower tier units be allowed to attack anyone, anytime. The present HN system ought to stay and be used as it is, but this added along with it.

 

[Sarisin]

OK. Now, those civs with the Barbarian trait can attack animals without declaring war on the barbs.

So, you are saying from the get-go Clan Warriors, Lizardmen, Charadon's Beastmen, etc. can enter the territory of civs without border agreements, attack and pillage, without war being declared? Or, they can also attack barb units when they show up without declaring war on the barbs?

If so, that is a huge advantage for those civs with the BAR trait. I honestly don't play them now (I hate that 50% too civilized rule), but if a change like this was made, it would sure make them interesting. You would have to defend against them AND the barbs in the early going - it would have the same effect as having extra barbs. You really would have to concentrate more on defending rather than exploring. Unfortunately, I think it would be the poor ai civs with their poorly-defended cities that would suffer the most as I always get some defenders to prepare for the raging barbs and expand slowly.

I like your ideas as something different for the mod.

 

[jimi12]

does this mean that not only you can attack anyone without declaring war, but that anybody can kill you without declaring war? if so, i fail to see the benefits.

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, as a side effect the Barbarian Trait civs could fight animals and barbarian units without having to declare war AND can freely harass other Civs (but remember, they won't like you if you do so, and you'll build up War Weariness as well. So it can hurt you a LOT diplomatically).

One fun thing is that then you have to tip-toe even MORE with the score deal to keep your peace with the Barbarian units, because now you can directly act to reduce the power (and thus score) of other players


On a side note: I really think that THIS tag should be used for animal units instead of HN. Then spiders can keep spawning Babies.

EDIT: for Jimi12's question: Yes, they can also attack your units who have this aspect. And it isn't meant as Benefit so much as flavor.