Barbs and Difficulty

[CrabHelmet]

TBH most players skimp on early-game military. A few warriors and an archer can handle barbs easily at lower difficulties.

G

I don't think that's true. You need more than a few warriors to be able to escort Settlers at the requisite rate. All I'm saying is that, as an experienced Deity player, I build noticeably less warriors in the early-game than when I tried playing a game on Chieftain just to check out what my friends were talking about.

I don't know how you're going to get the evidence, because this was only drawn to my attention by newer players, who are less likely to post here. By the time you feel established in the community, you've normally played enough not to be on the lowest difficulties.

EDIT: Mind you, I think you could quite happily spawn more barbs on Deity, too. I don't know about other players, but I occasionally feel like they're too absent!

 

[Tekamthi]

barbs settings seems to be the most varied preference amongst civ players... some of my friends insist that they're "unfair" and be turned off entirely (w/o regard to UAs), whereas I find deity's raging to be unfair to the barbs if anything, and usually tweak spawn rate higher or apply a mod ("wildlife reborn" w/ the dbl strength option and some custom tweaks is a personal fave). I

I'd support more built-in options in VP, especially if G is willing to balance around them (though I don't believe such a proposal is on the table).. or a VP specific mod-mod

 

[pza]

wow, that's a very interesting topic. I, as vicious "prince"-difficulty player personally usually struggle in the ancient to classical with barbs. my build order usually includes 2-3 warriors and an archer. if necessary, i add in the starting pathfinder, if it has been promoted to a scout and doesn't have much more to do. With a lot of defense and healing promotion he's really good at defending against barbs and certain neighbors. but it's also not uncommon to lose your pathfinder or scout to hordes of warriors or later spearmen. or even settlers. i can confirm, on most maps they are very nasty.

since it's been years since i tried emperor, i cannot tell how's it like on higher difficulties. but it makes sense, that if the ai has more units, it will definetly clear out more camps quicklier. on prince and large maps, i see the ai clearing camps next to me once they have a large enough military, which happens around medieval more or less. i notice it, because i keep on thinking they might be on my way to attack me, but no it's probably a camp behind me.

so if camps are cleared by the ai earlier on higher difficulties, that means it's definetly easier to spam cities in the early game, as long as there's no threat from early wars to be expected. that sounds like it's actually easier for the human player to take advantage of, than for the AI?

oh, and while we're at it and i might have the attention of certain readers, can we do something about the desyncs barbs provoke in multiplayer?

 

[Gamewizard]

I play emperor and the barb experience seems just right for me. I like to prioritize scout in first or second build to scan the immediate area for barb camps. 2 or more camps found and I usually take Authority and prioritize teching archers and getting 2 out to accompany the meat shield warrior to slowly grind down the camps. In this situation the more barbs that spawn the more culture you can earn. Barbs are aggressive and a fortified warrior can handle the abuse. If you find horses nearby they must be considered priority as horsemen are the best anti-axemen.

Sometimes the early scout finds no camps or an excess of CS and in this situation I would avoid Authority and look toward Progress, or Tradition if there is exceptional food potential. Horses are still priority as they can be quickly dispatched to defend from future camps that spawn in the revealed fog before you are able to send a settler out to the area.

 

[Gazebo]

oh, and while we're at it and i might have the attention of certain readers, can we do something about the desyncs barbs provoke in multiplayer?

We've tried everything under the sun and, at the end of the day, we lack the tools to deal with it. We don't have any access to the netcode of civ, just the DLL, so we're ambling about in the dark when it comes to desyncs.

Just disable barbs in MP. Not ideal, but there's no solution otherwise, and won't be one.

G

 

[Deadstarre]

EDIT: Mind you, I think you could quite happily spawn more barbs on Deity, too. I don't know about other players, but I occasionally feel like they're too absent!

you must be playing on cramped maps because i'm getting swamped routinely. I played chill barbs forever because that was the original barb setting, now that authority is competitive to progress again ive been trying it on default. I can handle it and keep up with the AI, just barely most of the time and often still failing, by removing the XP cap and removing all of their terrain walking. If I dont have both those things its basically just game over unless I had some kind of ridiculously perfect start. I've shared my map here before, I like a little room to breathe and for me and AI to expand comfortably to a point. im done with the days of having my planned third city location getting forward settled by someone else

also, ive played a lot of games where AI had zero barb bonus and i can tell you it doesnt go well for them. the AI barb bonus is in a sweet spot right now imo

 

[tu_79]

A little proposal.

Let's all play at warlord and chieftain for 100 turns. Just a test game. Mind that we all know how to play, and those difficulties are intended for noobs, so try to make mistakes purposedly. Then, we talk again.

 

[Jakethedane]

you must be playing on cramped maps because i'm getting swamped routinely. I played chill barbs forever because that was the original barb setting, now that authority is competitive to progress again ive been trying it on default. I can handle it and keep up with the AI, just barely most of the time and often still failing, by removing the XP cap and removing all of their terrain walking. If I dont have both those things its basically just game over unless I had some kind of ridiculously perfect start. I've shared my map here before, I like a little room to breathe and for me and AI to expand comfortably to a point. im done with the days of having my planned third city location getting forward settled by someone else

also, ive played a lot of games where AI had zero barb bonus and i can tell you it doesnt go well for them. the AI barb bonus is in a sweet spot right now imo

Never needed authority even for the strongest barbarians, since progress is so strong. Tradition struggles on big maps for sure.
The only time barbarians are an issue ever IMO:
When you are playing on a map with little to no water. IE-Highlands seems to be a barbarians heaven.
When you dont play with enough Civs for the given map size
When playing on prince and lower difficulty and dont use any time in the first 30 turns producing/buying units.
When you play with them in MP- Though I find its more the combination of city states and Barbarians, and by the end of an epic match (700~ turns) with both turned on we suffered little to no resyncs after turn 200. Maybe cause less fog of war?
XP cap remove is a must, and I have expanded Promotions tree which is pretty balanced so far.

 

[pza]

A little proposal.

Let's all play at warlord and chieftain for 100 turns. Just a test game. Mind that we all know how to play, and those difficulties are intended for noobs, so try to make mistakes purposedly. Then, we talk again.

that's a good idea. We could gather results in a separate thread, best done with screenshots like a mini playthrough. mind you, even though we throw in "mistakes" we have a different mindsets than newcomers from civ 6 or vanilla5. Like, they might think rushing libraries is still the way to go. running around with unprotected settlers is still okay. but still, that experiment sounds great.

 

[CrabHelmet]

@Deadstarre: I play on default settings mostly - Deity, Standard Speed, Random Map. Sometimes I switch to Tectonic. It sounds to me like you are deliberately creating more room between yourself and the AI, then complaining you get more barbs, which seems... counterproductive.

I agree that barb movement boni are ridiculously annoying, though. Also, barbs who get Sailing unreasonably early and you can't hunt them down properly.

 

[ElliotS]

Just disable barbs in MP. Not ideal, but there's no solution otherwise, and won't be one.

Then can you please give Authority +1 culture per city when barbs are off? It's a real problem in multiplayer that without barbs one of the trees gets turned off too. (I know that barbs are worth a bit less culture than 1 per city, but the tree loses out in all sorts of ways without barbs so I think it would be balanced.)

 

[Deadstarre]

It sounds to me like you are deliberately creating more room between yourself and the AI

i think thats the case yeah. no complaints, i dont mind losing. id rather turn off the xp cap and terrain walking so i have a chance tho than leave them on and play with chill barbs right now, just a preference. game was fine either way

edit: I adjusted the map length/width and water level multiple times until the spacing consistently felt right on starts. if youre not seeing any barbs and you want more, create a little bit more space for yourself. if you build it, they will come =)