BARON DUIN HALFMORN does not have hero promotion

[Azhral]

But by not going for the Baron if you can, you give your enemies a massive uncontested advantage. Sure, he might be worth the whole cost, but its better if you have him.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, the AI usually has far more units than a human would, so free werewolves you did not have to build can really help rip through their cannon fodder.

This, pretty much.

The Baron isn't a single unit: it's a force multiplier. More importantly, it's a force multiplier that takes advantage of enemy unit production. You don't have to build fodder of your own, can focus on other things, such as a key force of champions to be extra-cared for.

 

[Nor'easter]

Back when the AI was spamming low-level disciple units you could use the Baron to build up a very large number of werewolves. Kael reprogrammed the AI a while back to limit the number of T1 disciple units they would build, but you can still get some good use out of the Baron I've found.

 

[UncleJJ]

The Baron isn't a single unit: it's a force multiplier. More importantly, it's a force multiplier that takes advantage of enemy unit production. You don't have to build fodder of your own, can focus on other things, such as a key force of champions to be extra-cared for.

So how many werewolves have you generated? How many of the ravenous became blooded werewolves? How many greater werewolves did you get?

In my games I ended up with Duir and 2 greater werewolves and 2 blooded ones.

 

[Tholal]

So how many werewolves have you generated? How many of the ravenous became blooded werewolves? How many greater werewolves did you get?

In my games I ended up with Duir and 2 greater werewolves and 2 blooded ones.

In the game I'm, playing right now, I have the Baron, 4 Greater, 10 Blooded and 7 Ravenous. It took a while to get those first Blooded wolves, but finally some of my Ravenous beasts found some workers to prey on. I can see how the Baron could potentially be an easy game winner if you get him out early enough and have some opponents who don't have strong enough units to adequately defend themselves.

 

[Bootsiuv]

I've used the Baron to good effect myself in the past....using summons and/or units with good withdrawal rates proved to be very helpful
to wear enemies down without completely killing them.

I'm generally not a fan of going so far down the recon line, but he can be quite powerful when used in conjuction with the aforementioned units. I've had games with 20+ Blooded Werewolves, although the Greater Werewolves are much more difficult to attain....the most I've ever had at one time was 2.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

So how many werewolves have you generated? How many of the ravenous became blooded werewolves? How many greater werewolves did you get?

In my games I ended up with Duir and 2 greater werewolves and 2 blooded ones.

I don't keep track. As I said, I use them as cannon fodder.

I mainly pay maps with plenty of continents/islands, so there are always barbs to take down. One time I got about 15 Scorpion Clan goblins in 10 rounds or so, which is no petty fodder to throw. At someone.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Baron really flounders if the blooded werewolves he generates run off into the countryside instead of attacking the stack you're working over. I think they hate attacking cities and will only do it if the line of sight of your entire empire and army can't see anything else (so if there's a stray elephant wandering around the ass end of your territory half a world away from the city you're sacking, LOOK OUT STAMPY.)

Take pains to avoid this or just get lucky and he's a great unit.

 

[Morlark]

Mmm, the ravenous werewolves do seem to like running off randomly in all directions but where you want them to go. Saying that, in one of my recent games I ended up with the baron, 2 greater werewolves, and over two dozen blooded werewolves. Might have been even more than that, in fact, I kinda stopped counting after a while.

 

[Ayraclus]

I was just playing a game with the Calabim (Noble difficult) and after reading the topic i decided to give the baron a try, got the baron on turn 200 (Normal speed), after carefully hunting experience in the khazad lands with the baron and losha i got the baron to lvl 6 and gave him vampirism, after a few turns i had a lvl 15 baron and sent him along with losha and a few vampires to conquer my fellow neighbors lands, after getting a few blooded werewolves to 6 the Baron became a one man army along with the werewolves
By the end of the game i had 47 blooded and 2 greater, and lots of overpromoted vampires waiting in the "old world".
It was quite fun.

PD: Hi everyone, i'm new to the forums

 

[megamanx06]

Druids with the Order religion can also gain Command 4, as it only requires Order religion + Channeling 3, and disciple unit class.

You seem to be forgetting something about Druids and Order... Druids require neutral alignment and Order causes good alignment.

 

[FireBlaze]

You seem to be forgetting something about Druids and Order... Druids require neutral alignment and Order causes good alignment.

Have the religion in the city you build it in but not adopt the religion.

 

[Nor'easter]

Have the religion in the city you build it in but not adopt the religion.

Or you can adopt Order, build some Confessors, then convert to OO or Esus to become Neutral and upgrade your Confessors to Druids.

 

[Hellsau]

Just finished a game as the Kuriotates, and built the Baron early. It was a good idea, since he made his own army, and I don't think Basium killed a single unit all game. I think it's a good idea to grab the Baron if a) you plan on continuing on the recon line for beastmasters/druids, b) are running FoL (so Kithra & Yvain), or c) have the chance to make an army (weak neighbors, lots of barbs, etc.). If the Baron ends up making 5 bloodeds, you're ahead on hammers with 5 champion equivalents and the baron himself as a big guy.

 

[dunedainjedi]

Baron really flounders if the blooded werewolves he generates run off into the countryside instead of attacking the stack you're working over. I think they hate attacking cities and will only do it if the line of sight of your entire empire and army can't see anything else (so if there's a stray elephant wandering around the ass end of your territory half a world away from the city you're sacking, LOOK OUT STAMPY.)

Take pains to avoid this or just get lucky and he's a great unit.

I think it's based on combat odds. I've noticed that if I lower city defenses first the ravenous wolves are more likely to attack. Also they seem to go after wounded units whenever they can. Must be the blood.

 

[Veqryn]

you could always beat people with the baron til he is level 6, then turn him into a vampire werewolf....

it is too bad there isn't something like "leader", a promotion that gives 0.5 xp per turn until it reaches like 10-17 xp total. give it to lucian, baron, the dragons, etc.


ps: how are you guy getting acheron? using the capture beast promotion?

 

[Demus]

acheron: weaken him with flodder/catapults, then send your highest-lvl beastmaster in

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I think it's based on combat odds. I've noticed that if I lower city defenses first the ravenous wolves are more likely to attack. Also they seem to go after wounded units whenever they can. Must be the blood.

It can't be just odds, since I tend to first soften up city garrisons with magic and send Duin in after units with almost no health left. Lowering defenses might work though.

 

[UncleJJ]

Thanks to those who replied to my questions in post #24. You have reinforced my view that although the Baron and his werewolves are fun he is not particularly cost effective when compared to the likely alternatives.

I rate ravenous werewolves as pretty much useless and likely to die against any worthwhile opposition although they do tend to single out the weak and create a distraction. With luck they find a way to become a blooded werewolf.

Blooded werewolves are strength 8 beasts with 2 moves and they are about as strong as an axeman with iron weapons, mobility and a couple of enchantments (say enchanted blades and shield of faith which together give +30%). Beasts don't take enchantments and have to earn all their promotions from combat. I rate champions as significantly stronger than blooded werewolves and allowing them to gain experience and promotions means they are eligiable for upgrading to immortals and phalanx. They can also take mithril weapons which make them far stronger than any werewolves. Against those advantages for the axeman and champion alternatives the blooded werewolf has a mere 5% chance of becoming a greater werewolf and a 30% chance of creating a ravenous werewolf.

The greater werewolves are nice units and with a base strength of 11 and move 3 are better than champions with iron weapons on an individual basis. But there is no upgrade path and they dont take metal weapons or enchantments. They gain all their experience from combat and have a 45% chance of creating a ravenous werewolf.

So assuming you have already researched Animal Handling and have a few rangers and Iron Working to build champions and upgrade axemen with iron weapons, do you really think that researching Feral Bond and spending 500 on the Baron is worthwhile? You could instead spend those beakers on researching 30% of Mithril Working (which gives mithril weapons to all troops that can have them, assuming you have the resource) and leads to technologies that give immortals and phalanx. Feral Bond allows the Grove building to be built (300 ) and that allows beastmasters and druids to be built (or upgraded) once the relevant techs have been researched.

In summary: the alternatives seem to be Baron and his werewolve plus 4 druids and 4 beastmasters against unlimited champions (with mithril weapons) and 4 immortals and 4 phalanx. The Baron / druid / beastmaster option does cost about half the research cost of the "mithril" option but is in my opinion substantially weaker. What do others think?

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Beastmasters are probably better than phalanxes, and for a much cheaper tech cost. They're a little weaker than the mithril version, but have an extra move and can subdue great beasts like gurid, margalard and acheron.

Druids, if you have the right alignment for them, are THE best tier 4 unit. They can improve your land, they can cripple armies of any size with entangle, and they can cast high priest spells if upgraded from mid tier priests, which can give them either killer offense (Empyrean, OO, AV) or another powerful utility moveset (Order). They're amazingly versatile and powerful.

Meanwhile mithril's extremely rare and going for it is a gamble.

No, Duin's tech path is really good and would be a high priority if he didn't exist. If Duin isn't worth it, it's because ravenous werewolves are so unreliable and horsehockey.