[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

I'm guessing the expansion will have all female leaders for my Civ guesses below :)

Godasiyo - Iroquois
Seondeok of Silla - Korea
Kösem Sultan - Ottoman
Irene of Athens - Byzantine
Mama Ocllo - Inca
Wilhelmina - Netherlands (Dutch)
Shalom Zion (Salome Alexandra) - Hebrews (Judea)
Dido - Carthage
Esther - Persia
 
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How about Himiko for Japan as an alternate leader? I stated my reasons in reddit here: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/7ilehy/the_real_reasons_that_queen_seondeok_is_okay_and/

Copypasta:

Legendary accounts of Seondeok and even Himiko show ancient NE Asian kingdoms where women had more power than even today in many places. This very fact should be cause for celebrating that Seondeok was picked despite her mixed record - and could hopefully lead to an alternate leader for Japan in Himiko.

There is a lot of information about Queen Seondeok floating around on this the r/civ and Youtube comments and I just want to get a few things straight. If you're relying on her English wikipedia page at this moment, then you are relying on conjecture from titles with a slant such as Women in Korean History by Lee Bae-yong. The first part of this book focuses on the gender segregation forced on Korean women by Neo-Confucianism... which is an evolved version of Confucianism.

See this author's paper for a clarification about what ended up becoming so difficult for women once Neo-Confucianism became the state religion, long after Seondeok's reign or even the main history written about her.

As for Women in Korean History - it's well sourced but a little colorful in its depiction of Seondeok compared to the hard data and it cites positive legends about her which may or may not be true. And some of those positive legeds come from the same sources that criticize here. So it's kind of cherry-picking. This is why you'll see claims from women's studies transmitted in English clashing with misogynists online who cite mostly negative data about the military disasters during her reign.

The Samguk Sagi is written in difficult court Chinese but we can get direct information from both reliable English sources and the Korean glossing of the text. Let's look at 8 entries in Korean to get a good idea of what sort of obtuse text we are working with.

1. A toad omen signals an upcoming battle with Baekje. Seems somewhat legendary.

2.An invasion by Goguryeo. Not much detail in some of these accounts, which sort of undermines claims made about them by both Seondeok's supporters and haters.

3. Yushin's colorful rescue of Chunchu which include's Seondeok's orders to him. Later entries mention that he finally got a sort of "general" rank. It should be noted that by this time Yushin has been in service in various capacities since the time of her father's reign in 629 as a total commander.

4. The loss of 40 castles. It is a very short entry.

5. Another unfortunate loss despite the Tang alliance.

6a. On Bidam.

6b. Bidam's revolt. Again little detail but one could assume that this to some strife in the kingdom after so many military losses including accounts of people fleeing. And no, Bidam was nothing like he was in the drama.

7. Finally her death. In the footnotes of this database it talks about the possibility of it being related to Bidam's rebellion and cites other sources.

8. A much later era criticism of the female ruler which was written after the histories. This is what people say is "Confucian" and "against women."

Also I will link reliable English summaries of the history that people in other threads borrowed without actually citing.

We know that she appears in histories such as the Samguk Sagi and Samguk Yusa. She was chosen as monarch because other nobles did not have a high enough bone rank. Someone claimed that the Samguk Sagi is a sexist "Confucianist" work. Yet in the writing itself good things are said about her. What is astounding to me is that there were both matrilineal and patrilineal lines at the time, similar to the modern day. Why aren't people noting how Three Kingdoms Silla is astounding in that regard?

Those histories are from the Goryeo period and not the Joseon period.
They often contain legend and were written about 500 years after her reign. The Samguk Yusa is notoriously unreliable and full of legends. It was still compiled by a Buddhist monk and not a Confucian editor.

During her reign Silla lost many battles despite allying with Tang China. The religious, educational, economic, and military ties with Tang were forged prior to her reign.

The Hwarang were created prior to her reign. It should be noted that General Kim Yushin was drawn from the Hwarang and is member of the nobility of what was once Gaya. Kim Yushin's ultimate ascension is due to both Seondeok's father Jinpyeong and Kim Chunchu, who is actually Jinji's son Muyeol of Silla - and the one ultimately responsible for the defeat of Baekje, not Seondeok. Seondeok was not responsible for Chunchu's ascension - the bone-rank system that put her into power in the first place was. It was actually Muyeol's father who made it difficult to be in the running.

Temples were built for her well-being like Buinsa - and she probably ordered the buildings of others - often through the services of Jajang-yulsa and other nuns and monks. The observatory Cheomseongdae was also built during her time - it is famous because it is extant. It was actually based on another tower in Baekje. Still this is a nice accomplishment and does match with the science bonus.

I would argue that other leaders of Silla like her predecessors were more important as far as the introduction of Buddhism, centralization of power, expansion of territory that laid the groundwork for united Silla, and foundation of relations with trade China. And her successors were more important as far as the unification of United Silla. (see chapters 2-3 - also Imperial Chinese Military History: 8000 BC-1912 AD By Marvin C. Whiting has some focuses on it in his TANG chapter), which isn't exactly Korea but approaches the most unified Korean state (Silla's langauge is what eventually became modern-day Korean)

But what I like about her - similar to the even more legendary Himiko - is that she is an example of how Korean and Japanese societies both had value systems that valued women and both matrilineal and patrilineal lines.

Here is a nice summary of Matrifocality prior to the introduction of Chinese philosophies and religions. Here is a nice article about women before Buddhism took hold in Japan. Even with the introduction of Buddhism to Japan - I feel that women have still maintained some important role due to the presence of Shintoism throughout the centuries - they were often treated much better than in the West or Middle East during those same periods. Also, guess who manages the family finances nowadays?

Part of this is due to the indigenous religions; Mugyo aka Muism in Korea and Japan in Shinto. Mugyo is experiencing a decades-long revival and young people are excited to participate in old cultural rituals. Also, Japan still has Shinto ritual everywhere to the point that it is simply called "Japanese." For instance, New Year's customs for me in a few weeks are largely what others call "Shinto." Both of these religions are often mixed with others through syncretism. That's why many Japanese aren't so strong about claiming religion.

Himiko was a leader in Civ Rev 2 for the PSVita. I suggest the following fixes to Firaxis to tone down the rage in the Korean community.

1. Yes, Firaxis should fix Seondeok's appearance. Skin tone, facial structure, etc., are off.

2. Firaxis could add a male leader from a later period of Korean history as an alternate leader to shut down the complaints. Hopefully this leader would not be a leader from Silla to soothe regional rivalries between Koreans.

3. Firaxis could also add Himiko as an alternate leader for Japan with bonuses that help Japan in different ways than Tokimune. For instance, Bushido was not around in the time of Himiko. This might also show Koreans that they are even-handed with Japan. For China this seems unnecessary as we had Wu Zetian in the other game.

4. Firaxis should absolutely keep Seondeok as a representative of the Three Kingdoms period and of her family's accomplishments as a whole, including hers.
 
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That Austria isn't Germany is a quirk of history, or more precisely a political ploy of Bismarck's. Given that Civ6's Germany is the Holy Roman Empire, Maria Theresa as an alternate German ruler would make just as much sense as adding an Austrian (or Austrian-Hungarian) civilization.

Not really. Culturally, by the 1800s, Austria wouldn't fit in Germany just like culturally Bavaria is seen as almost a whole different country within Germany. You are right that Bismarck didn't want two huge Catholic somewhat more conservative kingdoms within the German Empire those being Bavaria and Austria who you would imagine could act as a very powerful political bloc on their own.
 
What's the chance of Mongolia, the Ottomans and the Byzantines all making this expansion?
 
What's the chance of Mongolia, the Ottomans and the Byzantines all making this expansion?
Based on the trailer Mongolia is in. I think it will be the Ottomans over Byzantines personally, but not both of them this time. They already had a unique icon and looks to the Janissaries in the Jadwiga's Scenario, so they might have been working on them already.
 
I don't like Irene of athens she ripped out her son's eyes just because she couldn't accept being not the full leader byzantium.
 
They said there would be two unique districts added with the new civs. We've already seen one with Korea and the campus. Who are good candidates for the other?

Unique districts left are what:

Encampment: Shaka/Zulu? (unlikely in the expansion with the Mongols in, they need to save a warmongering poster boy for the next one). Carthage? (maybe given what they did with the CS)

Commercial: Dutch could have one. Mali? Part of me is still convinced the next expansion might have more of an economic focus though as corporations have been a popular return request, and it might be saved for that.

Aerodrome: I don't know that they'd make an unique version of this, but I'm not thinking of good candidates unless it's leader related.

Spaceport: They aren't going to make a half priced version of this obviously.

Government district/Other new district: They could also just do a unique version of one the new districts. That seems unlikely with the government district if you only build one of them. But who knows what the other new district will be.
 
They said there would be two unique districts added with the new civs. We've already seen one with Korea and the campus. Who are good candidates for the other?

Unique districts left are what:

Encampment: Shaka/Zulu? (unlikely in the expansion with the Mongols in, they need to save a warmongering poster boy for the next one). Carthage? (maybe given what they did with the CS)

Commercial: Dutch could have one. Mali? Part of me is still convinced the next expansion might have more of an economic focus though as corporations have been a popular return request, and it might be saved for that.

Aerodrome: I don't know that they'd make an unique version of this, but I'm not thinking of good candidates unless it's leader related.

Spaceport: They aren't going to make a half priced version of this obviously.

Government district/Other new district: They could also just do a unique version of one the new districts. That seems unlikely with the government district if you only build one of them. But who knows what the other new district will be.
Ottomans might get a UD, either CH or Encampment.
I also think that at some point we‘ll see two uniques of the same district.
 
That Austria isn't Germany is a quirk of history, or more precisely a political ploy of Bismarck's.
First of all, I admire the ability to calculate the outcome of alternated history.
You should not throw such arguments if you want to be taken seriously. History is full of "what if" moments and it is absolutely senseless to discuss such. Am I now supposed to say that Germany still existing, or rise of Prussia are quirks of history?

I don't even understand your argument. If Prussia or later Germany had conquered Austria, and succeeded in rewriting history, would it means that Austria never existed or what? Is it important for civilization to exist now to be revelant in the history? Austria was rotting and collapsing longer than Germany exists and to be honest post-Bismarck times isn't the most interesting period of austrian history anyway.
Unfortunately, we are too much perceiving history through our modern times.

Given that Civ6's Germany is the Holy Roman Empire...
Incorrect assumption, because it is not. Unless you have some inside info from Firaxis I don't know about.
Even if so then Maria Theresa leading Holy Roman Empire would be weird at least.
Calling Holy Roman Empire a Germany is incorrect in first place.

And I am pretty sure Firaxis will not put Maria Theresa to Germany again, because they would prefer to avoid being associated with Nazi ideology.
 
First of all, I admire the ability to calculate the outcome of alternated history.
You should not throw such arguments if you want to be taken seriously. History is full of "what if" moments and it is absolutely senseless to discuss such. Am I now supposed to say that Germany still existing, or rise of Prussia are quirks of history?

I don't even understand your argument. If Prussia or later Germany had conquered Austria, and succeeded in rewriting history, would it means that Austria never existed or what? Is it important for civilization to exist now to be revelant in the history? Austria was rotting and collapsing longer than Germany exists and to be honest post-Bismarck times isn't the most interesting period of austrian history anyway.
Unfortunately, we are too much perceiving history through our modern times.


Incorrect assumption, because it is not. Unless you have some inside info from Firaxis I don't know about.
Even if so then Maria Theresa leading Holy Roman Empire would be weird at least.
Calling Holy Roman Empire a Germany is incorrect in first place.

And I am pretty sure Firaxis will not put Maria Theresa to Germany again, because they would prefer to avoid being associated with Nazi ideology.
Nationalists are so cute when they're offended. :lol:
 
LastSword is Polish, not German. :p
Now I regret wasting time by taking his comment seriously and writing a response, I just could go: "Nice nazi stuff you got there, :lol:." Primitive.
Though I felt that his comment was more a belief than an argument in first place. :) But I got baited.
 
I just stumbled upon a possible female arabic leader... (thanks, CK2 :rolleyes:)

Arwa al-Sulayhi

She's not the only possible female Arabic leader (though I would prefer if she were the leader of Yemen instead). We got Shajar al-Durr, and perhaps a few others.
 
Now I regret wasting time by taking his comment seriously and writing a response, I just could go: "Nice nazi stuff you got there, :lol:." Primitive.
Though I felt that his comment was more a belief than an argument in first place. :) But I got baited.
For the record, I wasn't trying to bait anyone, and I would rather see Austria as a separate civilization than attached to Germany; I was merely pointing out that it's a possibility. However, I didn't really consider your smug, condescending post peppered with ad hominems really worth a more serious reply. ;) And I'll point out once again that a "civilization" and a "nation-state" are not by any stretch of the imagination the same thing. The Holy Roman Empire most certainly was part of the German civilization. So was Austria, but Austria became enough of its own thing later on that I don't really mind balkanizing it.
 
However, I didn't really consider your smug, condescending post peppered with ad hominems really worth a more serious reply.
Now, now - nobody was being condescending. They were just trying to explain some
difficult concepts in a way the younger people here might find easier to comprehend.
 
The two civs we now know were clearly featured in the trailer.
Clearly the Mongols is one of the civs that will be in

But what about the Black Death and Navigation clue? I was thinking Genoa for a second but that would be hard. Italy before Rome were included with Turin as a capital and Victor Emmanuel as a leader. I think there are some possible scenarios there with France, Austria and Italy. Unification seems like a good possibility for game play with the new loyalty and free city concept.
 
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