[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[durfal]

On the topic of the Dutch, if Wilhelmina does come I really hope we don't see a Dutch Resistance against her on several websites. I will personally be fine with the implementation as long as we get Polders. I'm expecting them to look beautiful with this game's art style and may surpass the Pairidaeza as the prettiest Unique Improvement.

As a Dutchman I would say that I really doubt it if there would be such an uproar as with Queen Seondeok. We have had 4 female head of states in a row, Queen Emma (as regent for Wilhelmina until she reached the age of 18 years old), Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana and Queen Beatrix. Only since 2013 we have a King (Willem-Alexander) again, but our next head of state will be his daughter Crown-Princess Amalia. So we don't have problems with female rulers.
As a choice for the leader of the Netherlands civilization as a whole the first choice for me (and probably most Dutchman) will always be Willem van Oranje (William of Orange otherwise known as William the Silent), simply because he is considered the Father of the Fatherland and leader of the Dutch revolt against Spain.
As alternative rulers I would also pick leaders from during the revolt and the Dutch Golden Age that followed, like Prince Maurits (Maurice) who was also a brilliant military strategist.
Grand Pensionary Johan the Witt (in office 1653-1672) is sometimes named as a possible leader, he was a republican and anti the house of Orange. He was great for our country as a merchant nation and emphasized the navy to protect us from the English but he "forgot" to build an army to protect our borders on land. In 1672 "Het Rampjaar" ("Year of Disaster") the English, the French and two German states (Münster and Cologne) all attacked us at the same time. People blamed him, but even after he resigned he had to keep in hiding. When his brother Cornelis was arrested for treason he came to see him in prison. They were attacked by a civic militia and both were shot and lynched on the spot.
Eventually we managed to fight off all the nations, but at a huge price. The Dutch economy never recovered and it was the end of the Dutch Golden Age. So he fits in with the Golden/Dark age aspect of R&F, but he wouldn't be my choice.

Wilhelmina herself is respected as a queen mostly because here role during WW2 and is remembered by her inspirational speeches on "Radio Oranje", which were Dutch language broadcasts on the BBC for the Dutch in the occupied territories. After the war Churchill called her the only man in the dutch government.
Personaly I rather have Willem van Oranje again or Maurits if they persist in having a different leader not because Wilhelmina was a woman or a bad leader but because I still find her to modern to be in the game.
If they go with her as leader for the Dutch I wouldn't fuss about it, but they have to portray her when she was older cause thats how everybody remembers her.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think that you are referring to canals in the cities, right? If that is the case, wouldn't it better if it was a UB for the city center. Possibly replacing the sewer which is unlocked much earlier and gives additional bonuses. Now that I think about it, there are actually no UB's for buildings in the city center. Hmm...

If I were going to do the Dutch style of canals, grachts, I would make them a UI that can only be adjacent to the city center, giving gold and culture, and add defense for the city center. I would have them give additional gold for adjacent grachts, since I would want players to build them concentric around the city.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

If I were going to do the Dutch style of canals, grachts, I would make them a UI that can only be adjacent to the city center, giving gold and culture, and add defense for the city center. I would have them give additional gold for adjacent grachts, since I would want players to build them concentric around the city.

Since the grachts in Amsterdam were also a solution for immigration, a housing bonus (+0.5 or something) seems also in place. It doesn't represent the reality well, since these canals were in the old part of the cities, thus the centers. But for visualization this seems a good suggestion.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As a choice for the leader of the Netherlands civilization as a whole the first choice for me (and probably most Dutchman) will always be Willem van Oranje (William of Orange otherwise known as William the Silent), simply because he is considered the Father of the Fatherland and leader of the Dutch revolt against Spain.

Maybe I just read too many comments on YouTube about Firaxis picking a "less significant" woman rather than Sejong the Great for Korea. I could see some of the same comments if they choose Wilhelmina, over the obvious choice as you stated above. Of course this isn't directly targeted at just from the people of The Netherlands, as in other people might criticize her as well.

 

[The Great Navy]

I raise: 8 female leaders and Akhenaten depicted as transgender.

You know that this just gave me an idea. The alternate leader should be Elagabalus an emperor of Rome.
Seriously look this guy up it's hilarious also he has to be portrayed as transgender.

 

[Guandao]

William of Orange has been the Dutch leader in three games (his Civ3 portrayal didn't look like him, but his Civ4 and Civ5 portrayals were more accurate). I think it's time for him to take a break. We've already seen a cartoony version of him in Civ4. Unless they depict him younger, I'm not too keen on seeing William return.

 

[durfal]

William of Orange has been the Dutch leader in three games (his Civ3 portrayal didn't look like him, but his Civ4 and Civ5 portrayals were more accurate). I think it's time for him to take a break. We've already seen a cartoony version of him in Civ4. Unless they depict him younger, I'm not too keen on seeing William return.

In civ III they went with the looks of William III, who was not only a Dutch Stadholder but also king of England and known in England as William of Orange, but in the description they told the story of the 'original' William of Orange . I remember, that after being happy that the Netherlands was included in civ for the first time, I was very annoyed that they had used the wrong painting for picturing William in game.

All leaders in IV were cartoonish but at least it was the correct Willliam. The leader of V was excellent and with a perfect voice actor.

 

[Duckfromstatefarm]

You know I posted this on twitter but after some of the criticisms of Queen Seondeok (not all of them mind you) I kind of want every leader in the expansion to be a woman, Catherine, come on down, Tamar you can do it, Wilhelmina Yes we can, Hatshepsut I'm on board, Zenobia, Boudicca, the Trung Sisters, Elizabeth, Isabella, Dido, Theodora, Nanye'hi, Amina, Maria Theresa, Yaa Asantewaa, Omphale, Idia, Nzinga Mbande, Jigonhasasee, Taytu Betul, Shammuramat, Liliʻuokalani and many many more.

You know what, bring on Jeanne d'Arc.

I'm on your boat, Especially I want Boudicca back in Civ 6.

 

[luigilime]

i think the clue for a dutch leader is just the map of amsterdam, the res of the scene i believe can be the representation on what would happen with the new expansion to occupied cities: loyalty will be very low, you have to garrison troops inside the city and you'll have to fight "partisans" or rebels occasionally

 

[chronoturner]

I agree about Zewditu, but I don't really want Selassie back either. Most historians consider Zar'a Ya'qob to be the greatest emperor of Ethiopia, so he has my vote.

Fair enough. I was just thinking thematically, Haile Selassie allowed Ethiopia to prosper under his reign, but he also led to the Empire's downfall. I don't think he would be the leader either if he was added, though. Zar'a Ya'qob would be an interesting candidate, or Menelik II if they want to go for someone slightly more modern. Though this all depends if they add Ethiopia or not!

 

[Scaramanga]

I think the Ottomans are in because the new free cities sounds like a way of Balkanization. Throw in Austria and Frederick II while they're at it.

 

[Absolution]

What's a good historical Slovak leader? I thought they were always part of another kingdom or empire until the 20th century.

Svatopluk I, and even Samo, could count as such.

But Bohemia may be a better pick anyway, Charles IV can have some Golden Age benefits.

 

[Guandao]

I think the Ottomans are in because the new free cities sounds like a way of Balkanization. Throw in Austria and Frederick II while they're at it.

By Frederick II, do you mean the King of Prussia? Old Fritz?
I'm not terribly interested in Austria, their best leaders are from an era in European history I'm not into. Taking AP Euro class bored me.

 

[Phoenix1595]

[Originally posted under R&F Screenshot Discussion thread]

Thought this chart might be helpful in regards to the question, "Is this time in history represented?" I placed each civ based on the era of its leader, not necessarily on the eras it existed (ie, Egypt isn't an "ancient" civ since Cleo reigned in Classical). I think I got everybody, but my apologies if I did not.

Ancient:
Gilgamesh

Classical:
Trajan
Cleopatra
Qin
Tomyris
Gorgo/Pericles
Amanitore
Cyrus
Alexander

Medieval:
Hojo
Frederick
Jadwiga
Jayavarman
Gitarja
Harald
Saladin

Renaissance:
Catherine
Peter
Montezuma
Mvembe
Phillip

Industrial:
Victoria
Pedro

Modern:
Teddy
Curtin
Gandhi

Atomic:
-

Info:
-

 

[Rosty K]

I wouldn't expect Atomic and Information era leaders for the simple reason that the designers probably wouldn't want their animated leaders to be compared to people everyone has actually seen and heard

 

[Phoenix1595]

I wouldn't expect Atomic and Information era leaders for the simple reason that the designers probably wouldn't want their animated leaders to be compared to people everyone has actually seen and heard

That, and it could be a touchy subject. Some of them are still alive or were so within this generation, and come with political baggage. I think it best if the developers stuck to leaders prior to the mid-century (and even then it is prickly, RIP Stalin and Mao)

 

[Guandao]

That, and it could be a touchy subject. Some of them are still alive or were so within this generation, and come with political baggage. I think it best if the developers stuck to leaders prior to the mid-century (and even then it is prickly, RIP Stalin and Mao)

Good riddance to Mao being a Civ leader. As someone of Chinese ancestry, I really despise that man.

 

[Absolution]

[Originally posted under R&F Screenshot Discussion thread]

Thought this chart might be helpful in regards to the question, "Is this time in history represented?" I placed each civ based on the era of its leader, not necessarily on the eras it existed (ie, Egypt isn't an "ancient" civ since Cleo reigned in Classical). I think I got everybody, but my apologies if I did not.

Ancient:
Gilgamesh

Classical:
Trajan
Cleopatra
Qin
Tomyris
Gorgo/Pericles
Amanitore
Cyrus
Alexander

Medieval:
Hojo
Frederick
Jadwiga
Jayavarman
Gitarja
Harald
Saladin

Renaissance:
Catherine
Peter
Montezuma
Mvembe
Phillip

Industrial:
Victoria
Pedro

Modern:
Teddy
Curtin
Gandhi

Atomic:
-

Info:
-

"Rennaisance - Montezuna
Medieval - Jayavarman"
It kills me.

 

[Guandao]

"Rennaisance - Montezuna
Medieval - Jayavarman"
It kills me.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Absolution]

What do you mean by that?

If you arrange the world by how was Europe by the time the leader lived - Go ahead.
Montezuma was nit exactly Rennaissancing the Classical Mayan culture, and Jayavarman ruled during the greatest ages of South East Asian Culture.
You'd rather have Monty ancient and Jaya classical or rennaissance.
This way, or simply arrange it by years.