Basic early expansion help please!

[ironic_lettuce]

Hi guys

I'm playing Civ 4 on Warlord level (yes, I suck that much) and I'm trying to get a diplomatic victory, but I always run out of time! My problem is I never know when to expand and when to stick with what I have! Also, when you build a new city, what is a good build order to get it big quickly? What I mean is, should I build a worker straight away, then get him to work on the tiles around the city? Or should I let it grow a bit first? I've only just started doing the city specialisation thing, and at the moment if I build a city in a flat area I tend to make it commercial, whereas if its built in a hilly area I make it productive.

Any other general tips would be great! I've read a lot of stuff on the War Academy and a lot of it just goes way over my head!! I'm just looking for some basic tips to get me started! For instance

 

[Xanikk999]

I usually send my warrior out exploring if i dont have a scout so i build a warrior first then let my city grow to size 2 or 3 depending on the surrounding terrain then finally a worker.

If im on the coast i go workboat->worker--> settler.

I send my first settler out unprotected because barbs wont spawn that early except for animals.

I would get my second city out by 1800 BC at the latest.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

and dont build a worker first, because it stops your city from growing and then your city never grows much. i usually build a defensive unit then, when my city is size 2 build a worker, and after that build a granary for fast growth

 

[Zaimejs]

That's probably my big early mistake. I build a worker to develop the city too early.

 

[Severus]

and dont build a worker first, because it stops your city from growing and then your city never grows much. i usually build a defensive unit then, when my city is size 2 build a worker, and after that build a granary for fast growth

There's nothing wrong with building a worker first if you have cows, sheep or floodplains in your fat cross. Research AH or agriculture and your worker can improve them once he's built. Building a pasture for your cows nine to ten turns earlier will significantly increase your growth and production and let you get settlers/scouts/warriors out much quicker than if you wait until size 2 to start on a worker.

 

[Rathelm]

Worker first is a good strategy depending on what you have in the fat cross.

 

[Wlauzon]

Worker first is a good strategy depending on what you have in the fat cross.

Correcto.

There really are no rules about "Always do this" or "Never do that". Some things might be bad 95% of the time, but if you happen to get a hot goody hut run, or some rare resource like stone and marble both in the city, etc etc - there will always be exceptions.

 

[Ace4nyC]

I perfer something to this nature:

Minning->Bronze Working->Agriculture->wheel pottery->Writing->Alphabet

While I'm researching my way to bronze working i try to produce one worker and one warrior and start on Settler.The worker,is there so i can rush out asettler. By the time the settler is build i already have a worker and agriculture/wheel (dependent on the needs) and im establishing 2nd city by then.

Rember this rule i have: One city one worker at minimum. Getting the infestructure out the way should be your first priority.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

when you build a new city, what is a good build order to get it big quickly? What I mean is, should I build a worker straight away, then get him to work on the tiles around the city? Or should I let it grow a bit first?

First, notice that there is a big difference between founding a new city (which happens several times each game), and founding your first city (which happens once, except in really wild circumstances).

For new cities, first note that anything portable (workers, workboats, garrison) should be built in an established city and delivered, rather than building it locally, in all circumstances where it is practical to do so.

Typically, the new city starts with a granary (to grow faster), a forge, a lighthouse if coastal. In the early game, you may need to sneak in an early obelisk/monument/library for a border expansion; later on you'll have portable ways of managing this.

For your first city, things are harder, and are very tightly coupled to your starting techs, starting position, traits, etc. My recommendation, until the game starts getting too easy on the lower levels, is to start with a worker immediately and build up your city as quickly as you can. Later on the answer will become more nuanced.

Also, notice that hammers can't get you out of the dark ages - you need research (commerce) to become enlightened. A good exercise would be to play a game where you put cottages on every (non resource) tile you can, mine only the plains hills, and observe how the game changes for you.

 

[Dronten]

I'm not the best civ-player in the world, but I have a very academic approach to the game, and I have to say worker first is a very strong strategy in most cases. There are exceptions of course, depending on starting techs and resources. Also, it takes some knowledge and experience to have the proper technologies the moment your worker is built.

Start a game, save your game the first turn, then experiment with different strategies for the first 50 or so turns. Then reload and try something else. You'll soon get a feel for what's good in which situation, and I'm sure you'll be able to advance one or two levels in no time.

When you reach Emperor, things start to get messy, and you'll have to change your starting strategies once again, and resort to very situation specific strategies.

 

[ironic_lettuce]

Thanks for all the help guys

 

[flamingzaroc121]

well if you build a worker first, on normal settings it take 15 turns and then if you build a warrior next that also takes 15 turns BUT if you build a warrior first it takes 15 turns, but you grow so the worker takes less turns depending if you have a tile with food or production on it

 

[mice]

Ironic_lettuce (good nic BTW) Most important when planting a new city, if you want it to grow, is that you put it by a food resource. This matters more than build order. Then your population can grow while you're improving other tiles.

 

[Rathelm]

But if you have say cows and sheep in your fat cross getting them improved is worth the turns lost to growth in the beginning. Now in a purely MP game I'd say worker first is probably suicide.

 

[JimT]

well if you build a worker first, on normal settings it take 15 turns and then if you build a warrior next that also takes 15 turns BUT if you build a warrior first it takes 15 turns, but you grow so the worker takes less turns depending if you have a tile with food or production on it

As mentioned before

Warrior first 15 turns
Worker 15 turns
Total 30 turns
City Growth about 2 (depending on start position)

Worker first 15 turns
Worker builds pasture on cow
Meanwhile Warrior approx 9 turns

Approx: 24 turns

So on single player you have approx 6 extra turns of production. Terrain improvement already built and growth should have more than caught up by turn 30 (both have 15 turns growth - but the pasture gives more food once built). You have done less scouting with a warrior but have 15 extra worker turns. All this assumes you have a useful resource in your fat cross.

On multiplayer you would have forfeited the game and gifted a rival with one free worker and a good city location

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Each additional population will onlyincrease your worker's build-rate by 1 Food/Hammer at most. You start out with 4 (3 from city-center, 1 from first citizen), and growing to Size-2 will ony increase this to 5, lowering your worker's price from 15 turns to 12.

You save 3 turns on building your worker, but must wait an additional 11 turns before you begin its construction (8, if you are lucky and got a food-bonus). The net result is that you will get your first worker, and consequently your first tile-improvements, 8 turns later, but will have achieved a Size-2 city (and possibly built a warrior) 11 turns earlier.

If you are next to a food resource, growing to Size-2 first will only delay your worker by 5 turns, but since you will be generating only 1 hammer/turn it is unlikely that you will complete your warrior by then. This does however give you the further option to actually grow to size-3 before starting on your worker. You begin your worker 16 turns later, but it builds in only 10 turns, saving you 5, and giving you a worker 11 turns later than the worker-first strategy. However, you get your warrior and significant growth, which could be worth it if the situation is right.

In summary, here are the results of all these scenarios:

1. Worker First: no food bonus
Worker: 15
Warrior: 23
Size-2: 26

2. Grow First: no food bonus
Warrior: 8
Size-2: 11
Worker: 23

3. Worker First: with a 3-food tile
Worker: 15
Size-2: 23
Warrior: 27

4. Grow First: with a 3-food tile
Size-2: 8
Worker: 20
Warrior: 24

5. Grow Size-3 First: with a 3-food tile
Size-2: 8
Warrior: 15
Size-3: 16
Worker: 26

 

[cabert]

hans, your way of pulling numbers is interesting (though wrong IMHO) but lacks 2 very important notions:

- commerce : if you have a somewhat commerce-rich environment i can be worth growing for the faster teching (lakes or oasis)
- poprushing : if you grow first while researching BW, you can have your worker earlier if you start with a warrior because you can whip it at half production (it's something i do very often). It's of course easier when you have a high food tile like an oasis.

 

[Prometeo]

well if you build a worker first, on normal settings it take 15 turns and then if you build a warrior next that also takes 15 turns BUT if you build a warrior first it takes 15 turns, but you grow so the worker takes less turns depending if you have a tile with food or production on it

I disagree with you, flaming

I think that if the worker starts immediatly to build farms, mines and (very important) work resources, the city output will increase a lot.

If you start building infrastructure at the beginning you will be the most advanced civ in 40/50 turns. Then your first city will grow fast and will be able to build more settlers/workers/army in a few time.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

hans, your way of pulling numbers is interesting (though wrong IMHO) but lacks 2 very important notions:

- commerce : if you have a somewhat commerce-rich environment i can be worth growing for the faster teching (lakes or oasis)
- poprushing : if you grow first while researching BW, you can have your worker earlier if you start with a warrior because you can whip it at half production (it's something i do very often). It's of course easier when you have a high food tile like an oasis.

Huh. I totally meant to include something about commerce, but I guess I forgot. I was really just focusing on growth and getting workers out.

Pop-rushing eh? I can honestly say that I never thought of pop-rushing my first worker.
This...this changes everything! Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!

 

[flamingzaroc121]

okay okay, but then again i play on crowded maps and if i built a worker first id be toast