Basium and Hyborem friends?

[chavo]

Hi!

First I would just like to thank Kael and everyone involved for making this mod. It has really brought me a totally new and really enjoyable civ playing experience. Keep up the great!

Anyways, in this game I just played Hyborem and Basium ended up being buddies, and I found that being somewhat strange, since I thought that Basium was supposed to try to kill Hyborem, the infernals and all Ashen Veil civs.

I played as the Sheaim. After getting my kingdom up and running and fairly established I switched to AV (founded by me), cause I wanted to play the evil world destroyer. Then I went about to research Infernal Pact to summon Hyborem to help me with this. But when he arrived the world was already fully settled, resulting in Hyborem spawning within my borders and with no place to settle. So I thought I'd get him into a little war with one of the good civs, so he could capture a city or two with his strong (for that time) units and hero. But that was impossible. He "just didn't like me enough" for me to be able to bribe him into any conflict. He was actually having equal or better relations with the other civs compared to me. (Most of these were good or neutral civs.) So I thought I'b build our relations with gifts and open borders and increasing the AC. But even if our relations improved somewhat, that still didn't help. And then my wars with the other good and neutral civs (who apparently were his friends) gave me negative relation modifiers, so he cancelled his open borders with me. At times I was actually a bit afraid that he would backstab me and grab one of my weaker cities instead.
Then after a short period of world peace and Hyborem hanging around doing nothing the Mercurian Gate was built. Basium immediately declared war on me, but not on Hyborem. I think maybe because he never got any cities, and therefore never converted to AV. So Hyborem and Basium were mostly cautious towards each other, and at times they were pleased. While the whole world, including Hyborem, were angry at me for "destroying the world". In this time I really though Hyborem would join up with Basium in attacking me and saving the world. But, even though he ended up being really angry at me, Hyborem never did anything to anyone during the whole game, he just travelled around the world, occasionally being a guest with the Mercurians.

chavo

 

[Bill Bisco]

It's strange that in your game Basium didn't automatically Start a War with Hyborem.

But yes, I've more or less noticed what you did. I played as Basium, and after I initially declared War with Hyborem, I was able to make Peace with him with relatively little difficulty. If I had tried harder I'm sure we could have been great friends.

Hyborem never seemed to understand how to expand well. He just stood in his little area pretty stagnantly. He also doesn't understand that he's on an island, and that he should build a ship to get off of it. He similarly doesn't understand that he's Got 12 Strength, and that most of his enemies do not. He doesn't realize that he can go solo and conquer many a nation.

 

[cvlowe]

Hah-

Playing as Sheaim. Summoned Hyborem, then decided I don't want him rampaging through the land, so I never signed open borders with him no matter how many times he tried. Then I got pissed at the hell terrain destroying my empire. So after defeating Elohim/Basium I declared war on Hyborem and crushed him. I am thinking about switching to the order, except I need my current, heavily experienced heroes to fight the horsemen. I ended up staging a huge group of moebius witches with sanctify around my capital and core cities keeping that area clear of hell terrain, letting the rest of the world fall. If there was any way to tell what water tiles are corrupt, I think I would set about cleaning up and saving the world

 

[mindlar]

Why do you feel the need to keep your core cities free from hell terrain? I realize that you are losing the food tiles and getting the relatively useless snake pillars in their stead. But with sacrifice the weak, you end up ahead on the food/health ratio.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Why do you feel the need to keep your core cities free from hell terrain? I realize that you are losing the food tiles and getting the relatively useless snake pillars in their stead. But with sacrifice the weak, you end up ahead on the food/health ratio.

So...? You do even better with sacrifice the weak when there's no Hell terrain.

 

[cvlowe]

Why do you feel the need to keep your core cities free from hell terrain? I realize that you are losing the food tiles and getting the relatively useless snake pillars in their stead. But with sacrifice the weak, you end up ahead on the food/health ratio.

Because I would lose the cows and pigs and sheep and I think corn and wheat and rice resources as well and the associated health/happiness benefits. Not that it matters at this point, nobody can stand up to my military might and the number of creatures coming out of the protals with a 75 AC count. And besides I have well over 50 witches, so many I don't know what to do with them. So I figured I would save a piece of terrain more for the resources than any concern for population. Not to mention- I'm trying to get the Meshaber of Dis built and that is over 130 turns to go. The game as I speak- the first horseman killed himself being too aggressive in an AI territory, the next 3 all came out in Svartalfar territory and are slowly taking it over (I see through the Veil cities). Right now they are the only challenge I see. Though my stack of 50+ Marauders and 50+ tar demons might kill one or two.

 

[Blakmane]

An example of what you mean. I'll post it in the bugs thread as well.

note that he's furious towards me and I just summoned him ^_^ he later declared war on me and I killed him before he ever got a city.

 

[nealhunt]

So I thought I'd get him into a little war with one of the good civs, so he could capture a city or two with his strong (for that time) units and hero. But that was impossible. He "just didn't like me enough" for me to be able to bribe him into any conflict.

You could have given him one of your remote/small cities.

 

[brainpan]

And besides I have well over 50 witches, so many I don't know what to do with them.

Do I need to say anything here? I probably don't, but I'm bored.

[Warning! WWII Analogy Follows!]

Hitler didn't complain to his henchmen, "I've got all these tanks, planes, and submarines just sitting all over the place and I have no idea what to do with them," now did he? See? If you've got 50 (FIFTY!!!) witches just sitting around, you might want to consider beating the living daylights out of something with them.

I'm just sayin'!

 

[cvlowe]

Ahh, but I was busy beating my opponents up with all my chaos marauders and succubi (I had more!)

 

[brainpan]

Sounds like you definitely had a game of " ownage with a 'P'."

 

[carn]

There is no error, FFH works as described.
Hyborem starts without religion, as without cities he is unable to have one.
Civs with no religion or non-veil religion get a negative modifier depending on arm count towards veil using ones or otherwise busied destroying the world.

Therefore he gets a negative modifier towards the one summoning him.

As soon he gets/founds a city, the city will get veil and Hyborem will convert to veil and will love anyone destroying the world.

Basium does not declare war on Hyborem as long as he is without city, because Basium only declares war on veil civs. So as soon as Hyborem gets a city, Basium will declare war.


I wouldn't call it a bug, because it follows exactly the rules specified in the wiki, it's more a storyline bug, that Basium doesn't declare war on Hyborem on sight and that Hyborem needs veil religion to love people destroying the world.

 

[icantcmyeye]

you can't go sell your soul to the devil and then complain about going to hell... it just doesn't work that way.

You found AV and you're going to take the good (research boosts, killer units), but you're going to have to balance it out with some setbacks.

 

[Twilight Falls]

There isn't much way around it, as I see it, because you need to have a religion in your city in order for you to convert to it, so unless a mechanism was implemented that guaranteed Hyborem a city (maybe forcing him to declare war on someone, or giving him a new island and a demonic galleon or something), this bug will probably stay. It would probably be easier to make Basium immediately declare war on Hyborem unconditionally, though.