BE vs SMAC discussion

[Galgus]

The bugs can't be that threatening because an entire Virtue tree is dedicated to hunting them down Starship Trooper style. Even farming them. If you amped up the bugs, you'd need to amp up that Virtue tree as well, and it throws the Virtue balance into question.

I do not think CivBE's portrayal of alien life as conquerable is a design error. The Xenodome, in fact, is a Wonder aimed at preserving and displaying local life in its natural habitat - a clear indication that humanity eventually gains near-total mastery of the alien ecosystem. The design reflects the planned narrative. It is a more logical and thought-out progression that SMAC's "suddenly we contact Planet and we become one!" which makes about as much sense as cave people suddenly gaining insight into how to make a bicycle.

Gaining understanding and more and more mastery over local ecosystems is what eventually leads to communion with Planet, not an unexplained sudden super-thing.

The Might tree could afford to be a better early choice - its would be a legitimate risk/ reward play to hunt Aliens early for a early boost and indirect warmongering. (At risk of biting off more than you can chew.)

That said, I wouldn't mind weakening the anti-Alien virtue in favor of better rewards for successfully fighting Aliens.

In the late-mid game tech should outpace the Aliens, but I wouldn't be against Haromonists engineering them to be stronger.

At very, very least they should be a real threat and tactic early.

 

[Callonia]

The bugs can't be that threatening because an entire Virtue tree is dedicated to hunting them down Starship Trooper style. Even farming them. If you amped up the bugs, you'd need to amp up that Virtue tree as well, and it throws the Virtue balance into question.

I do not think CivBE's portrayal of alien life as conquerable is a design error. The Xenodome, in fact, is a Wonder aimed at preserving and displaying local life in its natural habitat - a clear indication that humanity eventually gains near-total mastery of the alien ecosystem. The design reflects the planned narrative. It is a more logical and thought-out progression that SMAC's "suddenly we contact Planet and we become one!" which makes about as much sense as cave people suddenly gaining insight into how to make a bicycle.

Gaining understanding and more and more mastery over local ecosystems is what eventually leads to communion with Planet, not an unexplained sudden super-thing.

These days when I suffer from Insomnia, I turn on CIVBE and i will fall asleep in short order. At least it's good for something! A 50$ guaranteed to fall asleep cure.

Its just that the bugs is amazingly irrelevant, they might as well as not be there on the planet at all and I won't even notice their disappearance.

 

[nimling]

Bugs have been relevant in some games. It depends on whether I spawn next to multiple nests. It would be interesting though if bugs were implemented as a stronger soft cap on expansion - building a new outpost spawns native life and possibly nests nearby, which will target the new outpost or nearby units. That way should make players really wary about rushing for Colony Initiative or an early settler without having some soldiers built first.

It is kind of expected for bugs to be irrelevant by mid-game though, just like barbs.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I do not think CivBE's portrayal of alien life as conquerable is a design error. The Xenodome, in fact, is a Wonder aimed at preserving and displaying local life in its natural habitat - a clear indication that humanity eventually gains near-total mastery of the alien ecosystem. The design reflects the planned narrative. It is a more logical and thought-out progression that SMAC's "suddenly we contact Planet and we become one!" which makes about as much sense as cave people suddenly gaining insight into how to make a bicycle.

I agree that SMAC's and BE's portrayal of native life are totally different and require different approaches.

On the other hand, it's funny that you mention the Xenodrome, because its main effect is making the aliens friendlier... which is completely useless if humanity has wiped out alien life.

The design narrative I got is more is that alien life is a big threat in the early game, then in the mid game you actively push back and claim territory from alien life (hence Might virtues) and then either find a balance/become caretakers (Harmony) or continue pushing back/wipes out (Purity). The problem is that there's no "resistance" to the push. By destroying nests, continuing wiping out the bugs becomes easier.

If you wanted to play to the design narrative, I'd argue that as the game progresses, the bugs should become less aggressive but more defensive to "hold" the wild territory (with occasional streaks of aggression led by a siege worm), vaguely replicating the up-and-down in tension and pace you get from war and peace with a neighbouring aggressive but slightly weaker nation.

I agree, though, that once you reach higher affinity levels (~9-10), aliens should certainly be a pushover (with one last burst of sudden aggression triggered by the mind flower). It's the lack of staying power during the mid-game that makes them problematic as the other factions are passive at the same time, too. I'd even argue that once you really get use of the Might tree, there are not enough aliens left to really profit from it.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I'd argue that the basic idea behind the aliens in BE is not too bad, but both alien behaviour itself and the power curve need some tuning.

The first problem I have with aliens is their lack of aggression. Barbarians in CIV5 are a thread because they will raid your improvements and frequently attack your units, even within cultural borders. Aliens on the other hand are extremely passive outside of nest range. The only thing they will attack on sight are settlers (I assume because the equipment to build outposts is quite smelly). There should be a balance between the furious nest-defender and the ever passive randomly moving alien. At least let them pillage improvements.

But even if aliens were more aggressive, you still have a second bugbear to deal with: The Ultrasonic Fence. That building is way too powerful for the early stage of the game - the quest for immune trade routes is just absurdly strong and makes the whole idea of alien thread mostly pointless. It should start with just protecting your city square and then get extra range via tech unlocks (and maybe the quest). Same for trade route immunity - that would be a perfect leaf tech for T1 or even T2 stuff.

In regards to combat, the inital balance of power is okay - 1v1 fights are tough and take time and going 1v2 with a Soldier is very risky. Even if you aquire fire support from a Ranger you can't plow through them all. However, past affinity level 1 things tilt in the player's favor way too fast. Which is probably also a result of the map scripts - the ones with larger areas of wild lands are actually a lot tougher because aliens can manage to project enough power thanks to rapid respawns from several nests.

I'd certainly like to see some "really wild lands" on all maps, areas where the player can clash with much more powerful alien types and maybe in return get some rare and/or unique ressources. Suddenly the player has a use for military force outside of wars - and the Might tree doesn't have to become a pure warmonger choise anymore. Fall from Heaven (and Elemental/Fallen Enchantress) used that concept quite well.

 

[Snownova]

With regards to the aliens, I really, really liked SMAC's Psi combat. This way the aliens remained a viable threat well into the mid to early late game, without ever being overpowered at the start.

 

[Gorbles]

. . . we didn't play the same SMAC, evidently

Even without the Dream Twister (or the defensive one I can't remember that isn't really as impactful), Psi combat was hilariously easy to cheese. It was basically good game as soon as I could get out Locusts of Chiron. Never really experimented with Isles of the Deep, but I'd imagine they'd work well for mass Mind Worm transporters.

 

[Gort]

With regards to the aliens, I really, really liked SMAC's Psi combat. This way the aliens remained a viable threat well into the mid to early late game, without ever being overpowered at the start.

Wasn't psi combat just a case of designing some incredibly cheap units with the psychic combat traits and the cheapest weapons and armour (since those didn't matter)? I certainly didn't find the aliens a long-term threat.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Wasn't psi combat just a case of designing some incredibly cheap units with the psychic combat traits and the cheapest weapons and armour (since those didn't matter)? I certainly didn't find the aliens a long-term threat.

That's more a problem with the unit workshop than psi combat. Psi combat works fine(ish) if you don't actively cheese it (or removed the unit workshop).

 

[Gorbles]

Define "don't actively cheese it". This could range from "building Wonders" to "creating Psi units in the Workshop" to "playing Gaians" or "focusing Morale upgrades that upgrade all your Boils to max very quickly".

Psi combat was / is laughably broken. A lovely layer on top of the existing combat system, and great interaction with Planet . . . but not really that balanced at all. Then again, SMAC is an absolute balance mess and I basically gawp at anyone who claims otherwise.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Define "don't actively cheese it". This could range from "building Wonders" to "creating Psi units in the Workshop" to "playing Gaians" or "focusing Morale upgrades that upgrade all your Boils to max very quickly".

Heh, true! By not "cheese", I really mean... don't try to optimise it, i.e. use it in the same way native life is used. That way, it is a clever solution around the escalating unit strengths. Not the system to use for Civ:BE, though, as outgrowing the planet as source of danger is a feature (even if I disagree with the rate at which it happens).

On another note, I think part of SMAC's more immersive atmosphere was actually sticking more strongly to its own themes, let me explain (WARNING: rambling!):

Spoiler :

In SMAC's intro, you are straight-away confronted a heavy theme, the fall from grace and it introduces the Conclave Bible, then the video basically confronts you with very real ills and troubles of the present.

In Beyond Earth's intro, you are dropped in what is essentially a refugee camp and then it is explained that the Earth is in its "twilight" and the ships are basically capsule nations, carrying the best and the brightest - but that many are left behind.

In-game, SMAC, at every turn, presents the opportunity to actually re-enact these ills and troubles of the present and the religious theme is interwoven with the planet's awakening as "alien god". The dystopian society put into contrast with something grander, something beyond humanity, is carried through the entire game, from the start to end.

BE... meanders a bit. Yes, the Promised Land victory ties into the opening again in many way, but that is one of many - and considering the strong theme, re-establishing contact with Earth (Lasercom Satellite) should be a momentous event. Instead, you just unlock building the endgame wonder without much fanfare.

The other theme, that sense of melancholy and being the "last hope of mankind", so to speak, is completely drowned out by the unrelenting optimism of the game. Yet, at the same time, all affinities are presented... less than optimistic. Purity is dogmatic, Supremacy goes all Borg, Harmony turns into mad scientist genetics. But none of that was even brought up in the opening. Add to that the dark, dull interface that might have worked in SMAC... but completely clashes with the whole glossy white of the game's icon, its box and marketing material!

Of course, the opening is just that: a short video. Same for the UI. But ultimately, it's a good symbol for how muddled Civ:BE's themes are. It never quite settles on one theme (or even a few!), one idea, one aesthetic, even - whereas even Civ5 has the steady progress through the eras with the intro, the splash screens, the Art Deco stylings and so on as an undercurrent.

tl;dr: SMAC picked two strong themes and carried them through the entire game. Civ:BE bounces from one theme to another and, much like the gameplay, never quite knows what it wants to be.

 

[Roxlimn]

I don't think that CivBE has as strong of a central artistic vision and aesthetic as SMAC or Civ5. Even the short stories around the Wonders are a collection of ideas and concepts, none of which directly relate to each other. It's more a homage to all of scifi rather than to a specific kind of idea or theme.

I'm kind of horrified that many here don't immediately get what all the things and wonders in CivBE are supposed to be, or find it demanding to read what they are in the Civilopedia, since many of them are callbacks to very intriguing scifi concepts or actual short stories or novels. The Gene Vault as a planetary space-faring seed is a scifi concept. Ectogeneis Pod is an enduring scifi concept. Immortality cities, transhumanism, that sort of thin - all very involved and apparently esoteric, but not new and not unique to CivBE. It draws them from all over. The only missing thing is third genders or fluid genders ala Left Hand of Darkness.

If there's a central theme to CivBE, it's tranhumanism, but even that is undermined by the very staunchly and purist Purity faction, so I guess it's humanity vs transhumanity?

Whereas SMAC asks us to look at the factions and see how evil they become even as we play them, CivBE asks us to look and be the other side and see the good in them. Supremacy Victory absolutely and seriously considers transhumanism as the next step and goes back and truly and sincerely liberates humans from their earthly bonds. It's almost spiritual in that sense. It doesn't strike me as being meant to be a parody or satire of the horrific.

 

[Ryika]

I'm kind of horrified that many here don't immediately get what all the things and wonders in CivBE are supposed to be, or find it demanding to read what they are in the Civilopedia, since many of them are callbacks to very intriguing scifi concepts or actual short stories or novels. The Gene Vault as a planetary space-faring seed is a scifi concept. Ectogeneis Pod is an enduring scifi concept. Immortality cities, transhumanism, that sort of thin - all very involved and apparently esoteric, but not new and not unique to CivBE. It draws them from all over. The only missing thing is third genders or fluid genders ala Left Hand of Darkness.

What's horrifying about that? The fact that you realized that some people have different preferences than you? My SciFi-Experience basically boils down to, well, watching Star Trek when I was a child. And some Stargate here and there. No SciFi-Books read, nothing - I always preferred historical fiction or just straight-out high-fantasy stuff.

But that's exactly what I said in another post: It's the difference between a traditional Civ-Game, where you can assume that pretty much anyone knows some names and stories, get what buildings are and what they do... it just doesn't take much for pretty much anyone to get immersed. The same is not true for SciFi, as there are just people who usually don't care about it and only really got into it because it's a Civ-Game.

 

[Gorbles]

Oh gods you spelled it 'Star Gate', you troll You'll cause a war!

 

[Ryika]

I... I never did that!

 

[Lord Tirian]

I'm kind of horrified that many here don't immediately get what all the things and wonders in CivBE are supposed to be, or find it demanding to read what they are in the Civilopedia, since many of them are callbacks to very intriguing scifi concepts or actual short stories or novels

I think this is a red herring, it's very easy to dismiss people by saying they "don't immediately get" it on multiple levels:

1. Just because you "get it" and understand what it references doesn't mean it resonates with you.
2. Good portion of wonders have, essentially, code names: without context, what is a Archimedes lever? A xenomalleum? A Markov Eclipse? (even if I appreciate name-checking Markov and that they did incorporate machine learning and Big Data, so to speak, into the lore)
3. Referencing sci-fi stories is... well, as meaningful as a pop culture reference, it doesn't tell you much beyond "hey, I read that book, too!".

Ultimately, all three lead to one problem:

Civ:BE is very good at telling you how something works but not about what it does. By "what", I don't mean the game effects or the immediate technical use but rather its impact on society and how people use it in their lives. And I think that's what SMAC did better, really, the quotes illustrated how people saw the technology instead of how it works and that's what resonates.

Perhaps I'm just spoilt by my interest in science and sci-fi in general, but the big works of sci-fi are all about what impact these things have:

The Mars trilogy explores the politics of colonising a new world, Baxter's Proxima is about the human struggles and how new technologies can inform politics, Dune is about a far future society, a hostile world and the impact of prescience. Banks' Culture gets away with a weird Supremacy-like attitude because we see why they feel superior. And all of them try to create a coherent image of how these things interweave.

 

[Galgus]

I'd argue that the basic idea behind the aliens in BE is not too bad, but both alien behaviour itself and the power curve need some tuning.

The first problem I have with aliens is their lack of aggression. Barbarians in CIV5 are a thread because they will raid your improvements and frequently attack your units, even within cultural borders. Aliens on the other hand are extremely passive outside of nest range. The only thing they will attack on sight are settlers (I assume because the equipment to build outposts is quite smelly). There should be a balance between the furious nest-defender and the ever passive randomly moving alien. At least let them pillage improvements.

But even if aliens were more aggressive, you still have a second bugbear to deal with: The Ultrasonic Fence. That building is way too powerful for the early stage of the game - the quest for immune trade routes is just absurdly strong and makes the whole idea of alien thread mostly pointless. It should start with just protecting your city square and then get extra range via tech unlocks (and maybe the quest). Same for trade route immunity - that would be a perfect leaf tech for T1 or even T2 stuff.

In regards to combat, the inital balance of power is okay - 1v1 fights are tough and take time and going 1v2 with a Soldier is very risky. Even if you aquire fire support from a Ranger you can't plow through them all. However, past affinity level 1 things tilt in the player's favor way too fast. Which is probably also a result of the map scripts - the ones with larger areas of wild lands are actually a lot tougher because aliens can manage to project enough power thanks to rapid respawns from several nests.

I'd certainly like to see some "really wild lands" on all maps, areas where the player can clash with much more powerful alien types and maybe in return get some rare and/or unique ressources. Suddenly the player has a use for military force outside of wars - and the Might tree doesn't have to become a pure warmonger choise anymore. Fall from Heaven (and Elemental/Fallen Enchantress) used that concept quite well.

Personally I'd prefer to delete the Ultrasonic Fence and make Aliens a real threat / asset all game long, with potential for Harmony players to upgrade them.

I would also really like to see the Might tree have more rewards for fighting Aliens, so it isn't just a warmonger tree.

 

[poom3619]

I don't think that CivBE has as strong of a central artistic vision and aesthetic as SMAC or Civ5. Even the short stories around the Wonders are a collection of ideas and concepts, none of which directly relate to each other. It's more a homage to all of scifi rather than to a specific kind of idea or theme.

I'm kind of horrified that many here don't immediately get what all the things and wonders in CivBE are supposed to be, or find it demanding to read what they are in the Civilopedia, since many of them are callbacks to very intriguing scifi concepts or actual short stories or novels. The Gene Vault as a planetary space-faring seed is a scifi concept. Ectogeneis Pod is an enduring scifi concept. Immortality cities, transhumanism, that sort of thin - all very involved and apparently esoteric, but not new and not unique to CivBE. It draws them from all over. The only missing thing is third genders or fluid genders ala Left Hand of Darkness.

If there's a central theme to CivBE, it's tranhumanism, but even that is undermined by the very staunchly and purist Purity faction, so I guess it's humanity vs transhumanity?

Whereas SMAC asks us to look at the factions and see how evil they become even as we play them, CivBE asks us to look and be the other side and see the good in them. Supremacy Victory absolutely and seriously considers transhumanism as the next step and goes back and truly and sincerely liberates humans from their earthly bonds. It's almost spiritual in that sense. It doesn't strike me as being meant to be a parody or satire of the horrific.

It would be a book, not a game (at least in today's gaming where focus on immersion through flow and graphic, not wall of texts). I think you will be far less horrified if the dev can describe what exactly they giving the player. IMO, One can either complain about the lore writer can't write a concept in a short quote or the player don't bother a ton of text.

I think writer can actually do much more to immerse player, for example... write this as a Markov Eclipse quote.

"...and lastly, our greatest asset in our regiment, Klara "Cloudhead" Markovna, the first generation of Markov Program. We called her Cloudhead because we mostly can't understand what she said; except when we're under fire where she can tell us how to destroy the vital point of 5 enemies... and a tank... with a bullet"

 

[Westwall]

I think one of the things that take me out of BE is the fact that if you've seen one section of terrain, you've pretty much seen the whole planet. One of the cool things about SMAC was discovering landmarks, many of which prompted their own interludes such as the Manifold Nexus or the Unity Crash Site. There are zero landmarks in BE and that's really disappointing given the opportunities they've had.

Imagine stumbling on some black ruins or weird overgrowth that don't exist anywhere else on the planet, and suddenly it triggers an event where powerful hostile alien units spring up from their previously dormant state and start going on a rampage. These planets just don't inspire awe in the least and so that really seems like a missed opportunity.

Overall, it was just neat to have random events every now and then to shake things up, such as a fungal bloom that causes mindworms to pop out and start attacking from within your borders (similar to how unhappiness could cause barbarians to appear in Civ 5). Or communications going down so you couldn't talk with the other factions for X turns. Or land masses rising out of the oceans because of a freak volcano. These all made the world seem alive and dynamic.

Also, automated formers work just fine in SMAC... whereas in BE, they're broken to the point of being unusable.

 

[AriochIV]

Even in a book, exposition is challenging. You can't just throw an essay at the reader explaining what the situation is, or direct the reader to an appendix entry (at least, not without losing most of your readers); that information has to be carefully worked into the narrative.