Beating the elves to FoL or the dwarves to RoK

Immaculate

unerring
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
7,623
How do you beat the elves to FoL or the dwarves to RoK at high difficulties (emperor and above) where the AI gets a research bonus?

I wish that you could use great prophets (from pagan temples) to bulb religions but currently they bulb pilosophy after mysticism and not FoL or RoK.
 
You can bulb religions with greath prophets. You just need all the prerequisites (so fishing for oo and Mining for RoK).

But can it be that different civs bulb differently? I thought that they whouldnt but some things seem to me to run differently. Could be erring on that part though or the path has changed majorly during the revision of techs.

Anyways i for sure had the chance to bulb religions without getting philosophy first...

But don't try on immortal and deity even with bulbing.
Have seen RoK and FoL been founded around turns 50-60. Without insane luck from huts that seems impossible to beat. (oddly Varn Gosam AI sometimes beats Elves and quite often Dwarves to their religions at that difficulties. He sure is a tech-junkie...)
 
It's like trying to found Buddhism or Hinduism on immortal or deity. Why did you expect you could do it?
 
It's like trying to found Buddhism or Hinduism on immortal or deity. Why did you expect you could do it?

The issue isn't that i was expecting to; in fact i expect that i can't... unless there's some fancy trick. I was fishing for some fancy trick.;)
 
Escort your scouts with warriors so that they won't fall to the first bear and you may be able to pop quite a few huts and graveyards, with some luck you'll get prereq. techs this way.
 
Why do you want to beat em to it, anyway? You still receive a disciple upon discovery, and holy cities aren't THAT great.
 
Typically do advanced start games and give everyone lots of gold (and sometimes start in the Classical Age). I can usually manage to found both religions before the game even starts.

I have however found that Elves or Dwarves occasionally buy the tech before the game starst too. When that happens, it seems that it is randomly decided who gets the holy city and the other player does not get the free disciple. I find that quite annoying. You don't seem to get any free units for techs bought in advanced starts. That is the main reason I liked it when Kael moved the free great sage from Writing to Arcane Lore. (I almost always want Writing early so I can start out with enough libraries to build the Great Library Early, and often like to get Trade early too so I can get less essential techs from the AI.) I've also found that events that require techs don;t seem to trigger if the tech was bought. The Guild of the Nine can never be founded if anyone buys Currency, and I think that buying Sorcery stops the Gaelen events too.
 
Allow them to discover the religion, then claim their holy city in the name of manifest destiny. ;)
 
Allow them to discover the religion, then claim their holy city in the name of manifest destiny. ;)
Its not manifest destiny; you are liberating the holy city from the heretics who have corrupted the faith! ;)

"In the name of the most Holy Kilmorph, the true children of the Earth Mother free the Holy city from the Dwarven heretics. This is the word of Alexis."
 
Consider the implications of moving philosophy and priesthood until after the religions in the 'great prophet bulb preference list'.
 
I don't like having the religion founding techs on the bulbing list. If you are an EMpyrean civ trying to get Religious Law so you can get Chalid, priests may only be able to give you Corruption of Spirit.


I'd really like it if bulbing were completely reworked. Instead of having a set list of preferences, it should let you choose which tech to get research points towards. It would probably work best as an event triggered by a spell. A Tech's normal prereqs would also be the prereqs for choosing tat tech option from the bulbing event. Each great person would have a different spell, with different options.
 
Agriculture -> Ancient Chants -> Education -> Mysticism -> Religion

Worker -> Make 4-5 farms and build warriors while growing to work them (switch to agriculture civic while building the 1st farm) ->

Worker -> Spam cottages -> work cottages -> settler (slow because not all farms are worked).

Now, the farms that your capital is no longer working should be worked by the new city. It's pretty key to share at least 1-2 farms and preferably 1-2 cottages also between your 1st two cities.

This works best as elves, or other civ if a non-forest river and couple food resources to start and you kinda must start with ag or anc techs... no exploration or crafting civs need apply.

Now, why would you want FoL or RoK early if not the appropriate civ, aside from cheater ancients? I don't find shrines to be worth a poo (I'm a small empire kind of guy). How is it that they are so valuable (valuable enough to tard early econ/happy techs??) to you?

ps. AI on immortal is no longer a simple endeavor. For a simple, fun game I think I'm moving down to emp. It was a challenge on immortal and required luck on deity... lately I am requiring luck on immortal (and too much work).

I'd really like it if bulbing were completely reworked. Instead of having a set list of preferences, it should let you choose which tech to get research points towards. It would probably work best as an event triggered by a spell. A Tech's normal prereqs would also be the prereqs for choosing tat tech option from the bulbing event. Each great person would have a different spell, with different options.

From your keyboard to god's ears, I hope. And diverse birds. I'd also like to see dragons and other ground+flight units to be able to recon, causing 1tile damage, 9tile damage no damage or cast a spell - at recon mission destination - by choice. After you do the recon mission, the spell/ability the unit casts takes affect as if the unit is in the recon missioned tile. Now that's range spells. Give me flying mages casting at recon mission destination and I bet archers having a little range damage is no big deal. I wish to swooop in and cast terrible things! Flying I - IV promo. Levitate (air 2) gives Flying I, Swooping (air 3) gives Flying II (+1 for each of caster's spell extension promotions). Flying I - IV determines range.

Who doesn't want to fly around casting stuff at range?!
 
hmmm... from all this maybe i am overvaluing the shrine income.

i.
 
From your keyboard to god's ears, I hope.

I'll see if I can figure out how to implement it like that in my modmod.

And diverse birds.
I'm planning a few of these too. The basic birds will remain the same (expect just being called "bird," "tamed bird," or "trained bird" instead of hawk, since some are parrots or ravens), but I'll probably add 2 new levels that can attack. I'll probably let them get promotions, and in fact have a level requirement for the top level bird.

I'm also thinking that I'll add a "Rok's Nest" unique feature that that can only occur on a peak, which would spawn a Greak Roc -- a powerful unitcombat_beast, domain_air, specialunit_bird barbarian hero which would harass units within its large range. (It is a good thing that Beastmasters can move impassible ;) )

I'm also going to look into allowing birds to rebase the way they could in vanilla civ.

I'd also like to see dragons and other ground+flight units to be able to recon, causing 1tile damage, 9tile damage no damage or cast a spell - at recon mission destination - by choice. After you do the recon mission, the spell/ability the unit casts takes affect as if the unit is in the recon missioned tile. Now that's range spells. Give me flying mages casting at recon mission destination and I bet archers having a little range damage is no big deal. I wish to swooop in and cast terrible things! Flying I - IV promo. Levitate (air 2) gives Flying I, Swooping (air 3) gives Flying II (+1 for each of caster's spell extension promotions). Flying I - IV determines range.

Who doesn't want to fly around casting stuff at range?!


Your references to "recon mission attacks" seems a bit odd, but I think I know what you mean. It wouldn't actually be recon, but something more like air combat. I've already given archers/siege/some ships ranged attacks, through the AirCombat tags. It works quite nicely, but it doesn't move the unit to that tile after attacking. The AI is already very good at using such ranged attacks, although it doesn't prioritize building them very much. (I think this is because Kael lowered their weighting since melee units are usually better in FfH)



I recently discovered (when I was trying to let Profanes act as nukes) that giving normal land units a <iNukeRange> value doesn't make them explode and cause fallout; instead it works a lot like you suggested flying attacks should. You move to the distant tile if there are no more enemy units there, and otherwise stay where you were. (You can capture slaves from a distance too, but I haven't yet tested whether </PythonPostCombatLost> or <PythonPostCombatWon> work this way.) It does still cause the whole map to shake violently though, so I think that method would only be appropriate for really powerful units, like Dragons.

I was planning to change breathe fire (which summons a meteor) to a more appropriate spell that works like Pillar of Fire, but where the Damage type depends on which dragon it is (Drifa should do Cold, not Fire). I have considered instead giving them ranged attacks (I was thinking it would AirCombat like I gave archers, but the Nuke route is so much cooler. :) ), but always ran into one problem: Acheron would never be able to attack, as he has 0 movement. I find is really annoying. Would people mind if I allowed Acheron to move (and make him, and all the dragons, much stronger), but made him more expensive so that he won't show up until at least midgame


I'm sure that the code used for recon missions, paradropping, air combat, and nukes could be borrowed for use in ranged/targeted spells, although that is still above my coding skill at the moment. (Since the AI is good at targeting ranged attacks, why shouldn't we be able to borrow that code to make it good at targeting spells?)

I have been suggesting that it be revamped like this for a long time. (Actually, I think I may have first suggested it while targeted spells were still present, since I thought that moving targeting to the SDK would make the game faster, more stable, and easier on the AI. Also, these ranges mimic the radius of a circle like a fat cross does instead of giving the unsightly square range.)

Promotions already have the ability to increase aircombat range, so (if this were borrowed for targeted spells) it would not be hard to let Spell Extension increase the range of targeted spells.
 
It does still cause the whole map to shake violently though, so I think that method would only be appropriate for really powerful units, like Dragons.
Cool Hand Luke sound bite ftw. "world shakers!"
Would people mind if I allowed Acheron to move (and make him, and all the dragons, much stronger), but made him more expensive so that he won't show up until at least midgame
From what I have heard, this could cause bad things. I think him running about crunching on cities is a good thing though... This is not supposed to be like BTS, all fair and balanced. This isn't fox news ( :mischief: ). This is dark fantasy and somtimes, in dark fantasy, bad things happen to good players; if a few perfectly innocent AIs get killed in the process who cares. Unleash the dragon, let the cities burn. You may want to tone him down a little if he is nuking from long range though. Acheron should cast crown and it affects wherever he recons to (as does whatever he casts).
 
OT fox news? bleah. i prefer CNN an unbiased news source.
back to topic, don't include the dwarves if u want ROK like wise for FOL
 
Holy cities are even more powerful in small empires. Maybe you're just not spreading your religion enough?

Any but AV in your capital running God king is 1.5 coin per city, that's oodles of extra units to support before you have to adjust your science level. Even if you're running a 3 city empire, you can spread your religion beyond your own cities.
 
Acheron moving is BAD. I lost a game because the barbarians rescearched horse back riding, and gave Acheron the Mobility promotions.
 
The issue isn't that i was expecting to; in fact i expect that i can't... unless there's some fancy trick. I was fishing for some fancy trick.

I'm reading between the lines, and fishing... not a fancy trick, but the AI founds OO considerably later, so shoot for that if you really want the early religion, for whatever reason. It takes just as long as FoL and RoK anyway.
 
Back
Top Bottom