bed_head7's 20k thread

[bed_head7]

I was going to do a longer write up on 20k victories, which maybe I'll get around to tomorrow. Since I am starting my own thread, I should at least summarize those things in LulThyme's that I will naturally be referring to.

Basically, played through a map that I would consider somewhat subpar, but which did give me an SGL at masonry, which was a first after 25 or so maps that were acceptable. Most I even played through a second tech, if research was fast, so my first masonry SGL was well overdue when it finally came.

No more SGLs until early Middle Ages, when I got two nearly back to back and was able to get Sistine Chapel and JS Bach's Cathedral rather early. Then no more for the rest of the game, which was somewhat unfortunate.

I was a bit behind LulThyme's 1355 pace the entire game, due to getting ivory later. An early exploration unit is definitely necessary.

Ended up at 1380, not too far off, especially considering some mistakes (like not exploring).

One key addition for best game is that a food bonus for the second city is almost absolutely necessary. It took me way to long to join workers to Babylon and get it fully improved, due to lack of food bonus for Ninevah. Getting a warrior out to find ivory also needs to happen a lot sooner for me next time.

Edit: Completely forgot to mention more details. Cheiftan level, Pangaea, 70% water, no barbs, everything else moderate settings, Portugal and Hittites

 

[LulThyme]

Congrats. (only 5 turns behind, he he)
Getting all our ideas together, we have greatly increased the ease of getting early 20K on C3C.
A few comments from your summary : no SGL past middle age probably didnt hurt you that much, as most of the good Cultural buildings are build by the end of the Middles Ages. Although another early one (in Ancient Age for example) would have greatly helped you for sure, for Great Library for example.
Did you trade for alphabet then do a Repu rush?

About the exploration unit and the food bonus in the second city (Ninevh).
I usually build Ninevh just outside the border, or maybe one square further, on average terrain (say with some shield grassland). With the pyramids (that you got with 1st SGL)
that usually means +2 extra food, and +2 shield , and maybe +3 at size 2.
So the first build must be a warrior, which at this level can serve as explorator since you dont need MP (youll switch to repu so soon anyway) or defense.
And then the 1 worker is timed perfectly with growth, and after that you get one every 5 turns.
OF course having food or good terrain for Ninevh is good, but not that important in my experience.
Definetly not worth moving far from capital.
Since I never keep a game without at least a cow, My capital usually is in the +4-5 food.
With the Pyramids, it reaches size 7 very fast, and usualy grows to 8 or 9 by itself, and by that time I have enough worked terrain to boost it to 12 with workers.
So youll only be building about 4 workers or so in ninevh befire Bab is capped, so getting them out fast is what is most important and a bonus wont make that much a difference.


About map details : why did you use 80% water and moderate settings? (not saying its bad, just want to know your thoughts on the issue)
I think at least wet makes a big difference (more chances for rivers).

 

[bed_head7]

Well, I rolled about 150 maps, I would say, if not a few more. I used numerous different settings, and decided on 70% and moderate because I seemed to get more maps with a river than dry (of course) and fewer with marshes and jungle than wet. Anyway, it seemed to give the most maps that were at least worth playing until masonry.

As to worker joining, in COTM5, with wheat in my second city, I joined 5 or 6 workers. I think that can be done in HoF runs as well, even though the sort of maps we are looking at in general are not quite as easily improvable (lots of BGs and the rest were furs in COTM5). Having the Pyramids for the granary is more important than culture, I would say. You pointed out the worker every five turns, and that does more in the long run than one ultra early wonder. Getting a food bonus along with granary, like say a cow, could mean a worker every three turns which is a huge improvement over ten turns or five.

I did go for ultra early republic. I think I hit it a little late, though, since I waited for Oracle to finish. I then waited for another SGL, and put off getting the GL for far too long. Built MoM first (yuk!) as well as something else. Suppose I could look at my save and get a log. I do agree an SGL here would make a bigger difference than later on, but getting another late MA or early IA SGL could have meant another turn or two.

Another possible tweak I was considering for the best game would be going with three civs. I haven't tried yet, but I think on Chieftan and Warlord, where hopefully the AI won't beat you to anything except for maybe a first tier tech or three, having a third will provide more MGL farming opportunities. I was only able to get one MGL, which was out of necessity used for an army. Cheiftan AI are just too weak. I even tried improving their terrain, but it did very little.

 

[LulThyme]

Im not getting your point at the Pyramids.
You are going to build it before your even build Ninevh right?
So you are going to have a granary.
Now suppose there is a nice food bonus close.
Of course Ill build ninevh next to it.
But suppose you go further away to grab a food bonus.
Because of corruption or whatever it will still be hard to beat a 5 turn worker (without working a lot on ninevh itself, which slows you down, you will not get better than a 4 turn worker, which requires +3 food and +2 shields, so a cow would do here). And youll have to walk more, so youll delay the workers.

I would NOT settle Ninevh further away just to take advantage of a food bonus. I never settle more than 3-4 squares from Babylon.

And also I would not restart a game from lack of food bonus for Ninevh.

My whole point being while a food bonus for Ninevh certainly IS a bonus, it makes a very small difference.

 

[LulThyme]

Mom is not that bad at all.
Of course its shield/culture is 100 which is not great, but its shorter to build, and triggers the GA. The earlier GA, the better, as long as you have repu of course.
I often build Mom pretty early because I have Learned litterature and I want to get that library out as soon as possible and Mom is the quickest choice to not waste my shields. Libraries, Uni and Cath (coll to a lesser extent) are very important items, and it is often worth to finish a lesser wonder earlier to rush them.

Mom in 10 turns say, then Library in 1 and Hanging Garden in 15 (assuming 20 shield per turn)
will give more culture than HG in 15, lib in 1 and mom in 10
(14 more culture in this case, and more if you consider the doubling after 1000 years).

I dont know about 3 civs. You would probably lose research priority on 1 or 2 extra tech I would guess. That accelerates the whole game which is good, but misses chances for SGL. Im not sure what the implications would be.
Getting two early MGL and rushing Heroic Epic or something sure would be cool, thats for sure. I have never been able to get more than 1 either in this type of game.

 

[bed_head7]

I guess it was just the fact that I got MoM before SoZ that had me a bit unhappy. You are correct about the benefits of the cheaper wonders and city improvement before better culture producing expensive wonders.

As for restarting because of no second city food bonus, I am unsure. I had plenty of maps with second city food bonus with no masonry SGL. I think for the 'best' game, a food bonus nearby for second city is necessary.

 

[LulThyme]

I had a similar argument on the other thread.
Of course the best game would have 5 cows, ivory in city radius, and a SGL every tech.
You are not going to ever play that game.
Its all about tradeoff.
Its all about how rare something is vs how much it helps.
If something is rare, it better help a lot if you are going to ASK for it in your game (for example a masonry SGL).

Suppose a food bonus in 2nd city happens one time out of three. (im making this up)
That means that with constant patience, you will have 3 times as less potential starts.
I think those 3 times potential start will actually yield more gains.

To reuse your example, in my experience a masonry SGL is worth 10 times more than a second city food bonus.

As my analysis above shows, a second city food bonus shaves maybe 1 turn off every worker (but only the 4 or so first matter, before Bab is capped), for a total of something like 20 or so more useful worker turns which in turn I cannot see how this could amount to more (very generously) 30-40 shields in the main city.

You could actually experiment this.
Find a map with a food bonus spot for the 2nd city, and a shield grassland one about the same distance close to capital.
Play the same sequence using both spots, and Im willing to bet the food bonus will have made less than 40 shields difference in the capital, and in fact, close to 20 shields.

My point being Id rather restart a few more times to get more chance of say a 2nd Ancient Age SGL.

 

[punkbass2000]

It'd probably be easier to just make the map.

 

[bed_head7]

It seemed in the maps that I played, the second city food bonus happens much more often than you guessed. Plus, second city food bonus is apparent much earlier than a second AA SGL, or ivory sometimes if it is only a little ways off.

 

[LulThyme]

I guess I see your point. Youre saying if you dont actually see the food bonus for 2nd city or something similar then youd restart?
Usually if I see a food bonus that close I try to move my capital so its also in radius, although of course thats not always possible.
To reuse one of your example, Id rather have ivory in city radius or in 2nd city then a food bonus.
Soz is Very important at all diff levels.
Not just because its the best wonder culture wise, but also because the cavalries help totaly smash your opponents and help to rush buildings when youre short on cash.

 

[bed_head7]

I definitely wouldn't argue that about SoZ and ivory. Having ivory so close is generally a much greater limiting factor in maps, it would seem to me. But generally, I will do a little moving with settler to get coast/food bonus, and the borders, then expanded borders, reveal enough about the surrounding area soon enough that it seems worth it to me.

 

[LulThyme]

But suppose you had a pretty good start.
Say river, coast, one cow and ivory in radius, and good terrain apart from that (a few hills, forest, and shield grassland and no crap (desert, tundra etc).)
Then you get a SGL on masonry
would you restart if you had no food bonus for 2nd city?

I wouldnt.
From experience, getting a second leader in AA will make a much greater difference at this point then that food bonus, and it isnt that longer to play, and this whole situation doesnt happen that often in itself.

 

[bed_head7]

I however many maps I have tried, I've never gotten a start like that. I haven't even gotten a cow and ivory in the starting 21. Of course, I haven't tried as many as you. But I suppose if I got a Masonry SGL, I wouldn't restart with all of that.

 

[bed_head7]

Still going at it, albeit rather slowly. Now running MapFinder with the sole requirement that there is a food bonus and river in the starting nine squares. It doesn't save all the maps that I might try when hand picking, but on a 60-70% pangaea the coast is close enough (maybe half the time) even if not right at the start.

In three-four hours of running it (it seems to run into some mysterious problem after awhile, so leaving it 'overnight' typically doesn't mean much time beyond midnight) over the past couple days, I got seven or eight worthwhile maps out of maybe thirtyfive that MapFinder saved for me, and it took about an hour and a half to take all of them to Masonry and discard when there was no SGL.

If only I could figure out why it was stopping, then maybe things would move a little faster. I am also wondering whether it is legal to make a copy of Conquests to use on a different computer. I paid for the game, so it doesn't seem like running MapFinder on two computers at once would be a big deal, or running one while working on the other. If anyone knows, I would appreciate the answer.

 

[LulThyme]

What may be causing the problem BedHead is after about 50-100 restart depending on your machine, the game crashes because of memory problems.
That happens if you manually restart also btw (try it its fun, all the labels of things dont get loaded)...
Now mapfinder has an option to restart Conquest every whatever runs, to avoid this problem but I have never been able to make this work.

although that would make it stop much earlier than 3-4 hours so maybe you have another problem.

What diff are you trying BTW?

 

[bed_head7]

Oh, should have clarified. 3-4 hours was over the same number of days, running it before going to bed. So it lasts about an hour. And I do believe you are right about the memory problems, since I seem to have those problems generally. I just haven't seen it crash yet, so I don't know for sure. I am just doing it at Chieftan. I need to refine my tech path a bit, because on higher levels I probably will not be able to research as many AA techs as you seem capable of doing. I can get away with my mistakes on Chieftan though, so I am going with that. Once I get down to 1325 range, I may try moving up. But I also should play a few through where I meet Hittites or Portugal before researcing Masonry, and keep track of how soon they research techs and where they head first and such. Research was my main problem in my first attempt, as I missed out on 5-6 techs, where you and punkbass seemed to get all but 3-4 if I remember correctly.

 

[superslug]

Mapfinder doesn't restart C3C for a lot of us.

 

[bed_head7]

That is a shame. Though I just discovered that LulThyme's guess was correct, and memory was the culprit. That may be fixed soon, though, so other MapFinder problems will cause crashes. Nothing promising in this batch, though I haven't opened them up yet.

 

[LulThyme]

Btw Chieftain, I havent taken note, but I miss out usually 4-5 techs on Chieftain I would say (I do a repu rush, and usually miss, Pottery, Warrior Code, Alphabet (which I trade for), The Wheel, sometimes Iron Working and Horseback Riding)
It depends a lot on the AI starting position, if you start with Ivory and they are close, you can usually kick their ass so quickly at Chieftain (this is good if you have restart position on, as you get a free 100 gold), that you can almost halt their research.

And also, 1325 is VERY GOOD (my best is 1350), would require a pretty good starting location and at least a second ancient age SGL I would think.

 

[bed_head7]

I think it is very doable with a good start position and SGL on Masonry with no mistakes. My game was not particularly special except for Masonry SGL and had a few mistakes. Maybe I am being overambitious, but for some reason 1325 seems doable to me.